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The notion that the American notion of free speech is in any way universal or desired is false. No European country subscribes to this view and they remain viab

by jgeada 6y ago

The notion that the American notion of free speech is in any way universal or desired is false. No European country subscribes to this view and they remain viable and vibrant Democracies. I find it an interesting peculiarity that so many people here think there is major value in the broadcasting of known falsehoods and propaganda, and equally bizarre the notion that a random individual's free speech is in any way comparable to the power wielded by moneyed interests. In practical terms American free speech laws are really only for immunizing the rich and powerful, and their corporations, from any deleterious consequences to their false speech.

marstall 6y ago
How is the landscape different in EU? Are there specific laws about publishing falsehoods. Apart from libel I guess
- jgeada 6y ago
  Any trivial googling will show you. Eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_defamation_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_defamation_law https://www.rcmediafreedom.eu/Publications/Reports/Criminal-Defamation-Laws-in-Europe https://www.rcmediafreedom.eu/Publications/Reports/Criminal-...
WClayFerguson 6y ago
The problem with censorship is that you must elevate one person into a position of power over another, and give the censor dictatorial powers. If what you were saying were sensible it would make sense to let AT&T disconnect phone service, or stop texting that goes against the political beliefs of the AT&T executives. That's insane. But yet it's what Twitter does. I don't want Big Tech execs being dictators. And if they can censor then they are indeed dictators. If Twitter can say: "We're in charge of speech, because we own the hardware", then so can AT&T (and that's absurd) We have 20-somethings sitting in their Ivory Towers with the power to censor Presidents and Heads of State. It's got to stop. They're children. Presidents are getting censored by children today.
- jgeada 6y ago
  There is no legitimate value in false speech, despite its mythological value in American psyche. People want the current American president censored because he's spewing lies and falsehoods about every time he opens his mouth. His lies and propaganda have cost over 300000 American lives, and has caused a major deterioration of US' international reputation. Again, no other country on earth (that I'm aware of) subscribes to the notion of unrestricted free speech. Speech that is intended to deceive, mislead, defame and/or slander others has legal consequences in Europe. Even under US' rules, calling people out on false and/or hateful speech, and ostracizing them is exactly the "market of ideas" responding to such speech and suppressing it. You may say what you want, but if your speech is repugnant, we the public are fully entitled to ask you to go talk elsewhere (or not at all). It isn't censorship, it is that we all think you're an ass. Note that actual censorship is already reality for most individuals in the US. For most, what they're allowed to say publicly is beholden to a corporation not minding what they say. If that corporation doesn't like what you said, you get fired and there goes your ability to earn your keep. And without a job, house, food, and healthcare are gone. As mentioned earlier, unrestricted free speech is only a luxury for the rich and powerful to get away with lying for their own benefit without any checks and balances. I think we, the public, deserve a better.
  - WClayFerguson 6y ago
    You never addressed the central question of if you're in favor of censorship then who gets to decide who does the censoring? Who gets to decide what is true or false, or what is misleading v.s. true? The issue is that different people disagree about what is true and what is lies, and that is the entire point of why we have free speech. Reasonable people can disagree. Who decides which reasonable party gets to forcibly muzzle the other? A true patriot is someone who will give his life in the fight to protect free speech, and he will fight to protect even the speech he personally disagrees with. The people who are against free speech are the true fascists, even though they ignorantly think they're against fascism. The truth is they don't know how to fight fascism. Censorship ain't it. Censorship is nothing but a cornerstone of dictatorships. EDIT: Another way to say it is that freedom of speech is required for healthy democracies, because an open debate about political ideas is how societies reach a consensus. The minute you give one person the ability to stop another person from speaking, you have created a dictatorship. Speech is a human right and the most basic of freedoms, and our Founding Fathers put it in our constitution to stop people like you from eroding our freedoms.

by jgeada 6y ago

marstall 6y ago

How is the landscape different in EU? Are there specific laws about publishing falsehoods. Apart from libel I guess

jgeada 6y ago
Any trivial googling will show you. Eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_defamation_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_defamation_law https://www.rcmediafreedom.eu/Publications/Reports/Criminal-Defamation-Laws-in-Europe https://www.rcmediafreedom.eu/Publications/Reports/Criminal-...

WClayFerguson 6y ago

The problem with censorship is that you must elevate one person into a position of power over another, and give the censor dictatorial powers. If what you were saying were sensible it would make sense to let AT&T disconnect phone service, or stop texting that goes against the political beliefs of the AT&T executives. That's insane. But yet it's what Twitter does. I don't want Big Tech execs being dictators. And if they can censor then they are indeed dictators. If Twitter can say: "We're in charge of speech, because we own the hardware", then so can AT&T (and that's absurd) We have 20-somethings sitting in their Ivory Towers with the power to censor Presidents and Heads of State. It's got to stop. They're children. Presidents are getting censored by children today.

jgeada 6y ago
There is no legitimate value in false speech, despite its mythological value in American psyche. People want the current American president censored because he's spewing lies and falsehoods about every time he opens his mouth. His lies and propaganda have cost over 300000 American lives, and has caused a major deterioration of US' international reputation. Again, no other country on earth (that I'm aware of) subscribes to the notion of unrestricted free speech. Speech that is intended to deceive, mislead, defame and/or slander others has legal consequences in Europe. Even under US' rules, calling people out on false and/or hateful speech, and ostracizing them is exactly the "market of ideas" responding to such speech and suppressing it. You may say what you want, but if your speech is repugnant, we the public are fully entitled to ask you to go talk elsewhere (or not at all). It isn't censorship, it is that we all think you're an ass. Note that actual censorship is already reality for most individuals in the US. For most, what they're allowed to say publicly is beholden to a corporation not minding what they say. If that corporation doesn't like what you said, you get fired and there goes your ability to earn your keep. And without a job, house, food, and healthcare are gone. As mentioned earlier, unrestricted free speech is only a luxury for the rich and powerful to get away with lying for their own benefit without any checks and balances. I think we, the public, deserve a better.
- WClayFerguson 6y ago
  You never addressed the central question of if you're in favor of censorship then who gets to decide who does the censoring? Who gets to decide what is true or false, or what is misleading v.s. true? The issue is that different people disagree about what is true and what is lies, and that is the entire point of why we have free speech. Reasonable people can disagree. Who decides which reasonable party gets to forcibly muzzle the other? A true patriot is someone who will give his life in the fight to protect free speech, and he will fight to protect even the speech he personally disagrees with. The people who are against free speech are the true fascists, even though they ignorantly think they're against fascism. The truth is they don't know how to fight fascism. Censorship ain't it. Censorship is nothing but a cornerstone of dictatorships. EDIT: Another way to say it is that freedom of speech is required for healthy democracies, because an open debate about political ideas is how societies reach a consensus. The minute you give one person the ability to stop another person from speaking, you have created a dictatorship. Speech is a human right and the most basic of freedoms, and our Founding Fathers put it in our constitution to stop people like you from eroding our freedoms.