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What pisses me off is that as a liberal Muslim, we feel under constant attack from Saudi/wahabis. These Wahabi Muslims are everywhere in the U.S. and Europe. Li

What pisses me off is that as a liberal Muslim, we feel under constant attack from Saudi/wahabis. These Wahabi Muslims are everywhere in the U.S. and Europe. Liberals are going out of there way to defend Saudi men's right to force their wives and daughters wear hijab. But there is no attempt to expose what it is like to be liberal Muslim in the west.

dsr_ 6y ago
It's not a liberal value to force people to wear hijab. It's a liberal value to accept that some people want to wear hijab, and other people want to walk around in speedos, and both of these are fine as long as it's their own choices. What is it like to be a liberal Muslim in the West? I'm not one, but I am a member of an ethnic minority with similar stereotyping. I have neighbors and coworkers who are Muslims and Hindus and frankly, the ones I'm least comfortable with are the right-wing Christians. Everybody else just wants to get along; I'm upset with the people who announce that anyone who isn't just like them should be coerced out.
- Layke1123 6y ago
  What you fail to take into account is following through on your logical conclusions. Women who choose to wear hijabs aren't without consequences even in western societies because they have social reprocusions levied against them if the don't wear hijabs. It isn't like they are truly free to make that decision.
  - dsr_ 6y ago
    If I wear a speedo on the train, then walk into the office like that, you can bet that I will also face social repercussions. Freedom isn't about being free of the consequences of what you're doing, it's about the law not forbidding you from doing it in the first place.
    - Pet_Ant 6y ago
      > Freedom isn't about being free of the consequences of what you're doing, it's about the law not forbidding you from doing it in the first place. I've always found that definition useless. Imagine a restaurant where a black person can legally sit-down and order food, but where the townsfolk will beat them up if they do. They are legally not forbidden, there are just consequences! They are free! Sorry, but freedom from consequences is really an integral part of freedom. Some consequences are unavoidable, but most of them time "consequences" are just oppression through social means as opposed to government means and are not nobler for it.
      - dsr_ 6y ago
        The townsfolk are guilty of assault and battery, which are definitely illegal.
    - Layke1123 6y ago
      Strangers mocking you from afar is different than your own family viewing you as an outcast and evil for not following a religious dictum. You are intentionally trying to not see the details because it's in the details that it matters. Walking into a train or an office with a speedo on will not make you an outcast in your circles. Not wearing a hijab in certain Muslim cultures will, specifically your family. It will lead to tension and conflicts and shunning. It is not free of consequences in a much stronger way than walking into a train with just a speedo on in western cultures and you KNOW it.

dsr_ 6y ago

It's not a liberal value to force people to wear hijab. It's a liberal value to accept that some people want to wear hijab, and other people want to walk around in speedos, and both of these are fine as long as it's their own choices. What is it like to be a liberal Muslim in the West? I'm not one, but I am a member of an ethnic minority with similar stereotyping. I have neighbors and coworkers who are Muslims and Hindus and frankly, the ones I'm least comfortable with are the right-wing Christians. Everybody else just wants to get along; I'm upset with the people who announce that anyone who isn't just like them should be coerced out.

Layke1123 6y ago
What you fail to take into account is following through on your logical conclusions. Women who choose to wear hijabs aren't without consequences even in western societies because they have social reprocusions levied against them if the don't wear hijabs. It isn't like they are truly free to make that decision.
- dsr_ 6y ago
  If I wear a speedo on the train, then walk into the office like that, you can bet that I will also face social repercussions. Freedom isn't about being free of the consequences of what you're doing, it's about the law not forbidding you from doing it in the first place.
  - Pet_Ant 6y ago
    > Freedom isn't about being free of the consequences of what you're doing, it's about the law not forbidding you from doing it in the first place. I've always found that definition useless. Imagine a restaurant where a black person can legally sit-down and order food, but where the townsfolk will beat them up if they do. They are legally not forbidden, there are just consequences! They are free! Sorry, but freedom from consequences is really an integral part of freedom. Some consequences are unavoidable, but most of them time "consequences" are just oppression through social means as opposed to government means and are not nobler for it.
    - dsr_ 6y ago
      The townsfolk are guilty of assault and battery, which are definitely illegal.
  - Layke1123 6y ago
    Strangers mocking you from afar is different than your own family viewing you as an outcast and evil for not following a religious dictum. You are intentionally trying to not see the details because it's in the details that it matters. Walking into a train or an office with a speedo on will not make you an outcast in your circles. Not wearing a hijab in certain Muslim cultures will, specifically your family. It will lead to tension and conflicts and shunning. It is not free of consequences in a much stronger way than walking into a train with just a speedo on in western cultures and you KNOW it.