7 ms·
How is it not a racist archetype? Good guys = white people from the north with British features and bad guys = dark people from the South with Middle Eastern fe
by oa335 6y ago
How is it not a racist archetype? Good guys = white people from the north with British features and bad guys = dark people from the South with Middle Eastern features is in fact how the British thought of the world for hundreds of years... Tolkien and Lewis writings simply crystallized world views that were prevalent.
- matthewmorgan 6y agoSaying that some people with dark skin are bad is not being racist.
- oa335 6y agoThat’s not at all what I am saying, you are straw-manning.
- meekmind 6y ago> how the British thought > crystallized world views that were prevalent They were prevalent because they were correct. It has nothing to do with race. By the standards of history, nothing between two civilizations is as well documented as the protracted conflict (14 centuries) between the West and Islam [0]. You might argue that this perspective is biased, and you may be correct, but even critics of that perspective acknowledge that the long chain of historical events and accounts of historical events are undeniable, regardless of what you consider to be their cause. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37938325-sword-and-scimitar https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37938325-sword-and-scimi...
- goto11 6y agoThe idea of "The West versus Islam" as a clash of civilization is pretty recent. Probably only appeared after the end of the cold war and gained steam after 9/11. If you think of the crusades they were more like Roman Catholicism against Islam (and Judaism and Eastern Christianity). For example the crusaders attacked and plundered Constantinople which was Christian at the time - just not catholic. England have certainly been to war with France more than it has been to war with "Islam".
- jariel 6y agoThe incursion of Islam, particularly by the Ottomans, was an long standing existential concern of European nations. Remember the Ottomans took Constantinople in the 16th century (Capita of the E. Roman Empire aka Byzantium) and converted the largest Cathedral in the World into a Mosque. The 'West' would have been referred to as 'Christendom' then, and the issue wasn't resolved until into the enlightenment, 1683, Battle of Vienna. 'Christendom v. Ottomans' is the original 'Cold War'. One might argue that there are echoes in the Battle of Vienna in Lord of the Rings. 'Political Islam', as we've seen since the 1980's has basically nothing to do with any of that. FYI a little known, crazy fact (which is likely but not infallibly accurate): you know your 'Croissant'? That delicacy was designed in Vienna by chefs in celebration of their victory in the battle, hence the crescent shape of the bread is literally the Islamic Crescent. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna [2] https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/feb/23/a-short-history-of-the-croissant-shows-its-viennese-not-french#:~:text=The%20evolution%20of%20eating%20habits%20is%20always%20interesting.&text=%2C%2020%20February).-,Croissants%20are%20Viennese%20and%20were%20created%20in%20celebration%20of%20the,part%20of%20the%20Ottoman%20flag https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/feb/23/a-short....
- wott 6y agoYou never heard of the 8th century Arab invasion of (present) Spain and invasion attempt of (present) France? It came as a conclusion of a century of Muslim conquests and attacks, and left just 2 small pockets in Asturias and the Pyrenees. They were quickly repelled from most of France (after coming as North as Poitiers or perhaps even Tours on the West flank, and as North as Burgondy on the East flank) except from a bit of the Mediterranean coast, but it took over 700 years to reclaim all Spain. The West (or North, or Europe) versus Islam and vice versa is really nothing new.
- goto11 6y agoSure you can group historical conflicts in many ways. If you say group all conflicts between Britain and opponents from continental Europe into a single conflict, surely you get a more protracted conflict than "West vs Islam", since you have at least 2000 years of conflict. The "West vs Islam" is just a particular inane categorization since you are contrasting a geographic area with a religion. You could categorize the Reconquista as Christianity against Islam (and Judaism), and this is how it was framed at the time, but how can it be "the West" against Islam? It is a post-cold war construct to justify a certain ideology, not a meaningful way of understanding history.
- jeegsy 6y agoThere are no people on this planet that would ever portray themselves as the "bad guy" in their stories. You are always the good guy in your story and the 'others' are the bad. This is human nature not an exclusively white thing.