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> each national party can plausibly deny being "the party that got Facebook banned", and pretends it's "because of those technocrats in Brussels." Given that B

> each national party can plausibly deny being "the party that got Facebook banned", and pretends it's "because of those technocrats in Brussels." Given that Brexit is looming, this doesn't sound very sustainable. If the people feel the EU's power is no longer legitimate, there may be consequences.

Vespasian 6y ago
Brexit happened on 31.01.2020.
- jlokier 6y ago
  It did, technically. But the transition arrangements mean everything of importance changes at the end of 31.12.2020. So far it's just a lot of government adverts telling us how things are going to be worse and to prepare for it. How much extra paperwork, tariffs, expenses, licenses, applications-for-permission etc there will be come 31st December, how we can no longer conduct some kinds of business, how professional qualifications cease to be valid in Britain after 31st December, and how some people who are currently employed can no longer be employed from 1st January. All the adverts and policy effects that actually affect people are focused on 31.12.2020. (Reading between the lines it also means some people will no longer be permitted a bank account or the ability to rent a roof starting in the middle of next year, though the government prefers not to headline that unpalatable truth.) On 31.12.2020 things will change in a way that affects some of us harshly indeed. I'm British. As far as I'm concerned, Brexit proper happens for me on 31.12.2020 because that's the day I'm deprived of my previous life-long right to work, study and move my life to the other EU countries, which I have previously used, and hoped to use again :'( I absolutely hate that such a major freedom, and my family's freedom, and my EU citizenship, is being taken away so forcefully against my consent and without me breaking any laws. I was considering leaving Britain and emigrating to another EU country this year under EU-citizenship-grandfathering terms, but Covid made it infeasible. If the Brexit transition period had been extended I might have been able to do it next year, but it will cease to be possible after 31.12.2020. What a Christmas present. On 31st this year, around midnight, many of us will mark a day of darkness and sadness, as doors close on our life choices, and the Britain some of us had some sort of love and pride in some years ago finally ceases to exist.
adrianN 6y ago
Losing the EU-skeptic members could in the end be a good thing for the EU.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  Not when that EU skeptic member that left was also huge contributor to the EU budget, housed the second biggest financial center in the world, was the EU's biggest tech hub and is a five-eye nuclear military power with worldwide influence. I'm not from the UK but let's face it, the EU cannot afford to lose another big member like Germany or France. Smaller members can be Euro skeptics all they want as they'll just talk the talk but can't afford to walk the walk as they benefit the most from the EU. Sure, the UK never did like to play ball with the rest of the EU and had to be let go but that doesn't mean it's a win for either side. A weak and divided EU only benefits China and Russia and to a lesser degree, the US.
  - Zenst 6y ago
    That's akin to turning a blind eye for the money - kinda like political lobbying by large companies that we see play out in many countries. Leaner is meaner and the UK leaving - sure if it was just for the money then that wasn't a relationship and the children have already grown up so to speak. What does worry me a bit is that tech/large companies have become in effect their own political parties with the amount of influence and impact they have had over the years. So any move by the EU now to rein them in, is a good thing and honestly, good to see that political lobbying by companies has some limits. 2021 is going to be a whole better year for all.
  - raverbashing 6y ago
    While it's true that the UK departure is certainly impactful to the EU, it is not going to be as simple for the UK as the EU-antagonists (I hate the word "euroskeptic") make it believe As a reminder, Montreal was the biggest and most influential city in Canada before the independence movement and it lost a big chunk of influence even when the referendum went for No.
    - 6y ago
CaptArmchair 6y ago
I don't think that the legitimacy of the E.U. will be challenged overnight over a single decision regarding Google or Facebook. Brexit is just the latest chapter in a long European history. The same is true for the Union and the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties. European history isn't finished as long as there are Europeans. The U.K. wasn't a founding member of the E.U. nor has it ever been a stalwart partner of the E.U. ever since it joined the Union back in There has always been contention in the U.K. about being a E.U. member ever since it joined through the 1972 Treaty of Accession. The U.K. even held a referendum as early as 1975 about the question of remaining in the then E.C.C. (67.33% voted remain) The same is true for many other E.U. members, notably newer members who joined the union in the wake of the fall of the Berlin Wall and the breakup of the Warsaw Pact after 1991. Their incentive to join the union was just as much geo-strategic as it was economic. That doesn't mean there weren't voices opposition within those countries as well as elsewhere in the union. These two companies coming under scrutiny isn't just because they monopolize a consumer market. It's because they enable forces of contention - nationalism, identity politics - that have led to some very dark chapters in the recent European history. The E.U. such as it is today, originates from ideas that gestated right after WWII under such proponents as Winston Churchill, and the primary incentive was... creating a stable structure for peace on the continent. The E.C.S.C. as founded by the original 6 founding members (Schumann) was about consolidating the coal and steel markets exactly because those were enabling factors during both wars. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#Background And so, if the E.U. moves against Google and Facebook, it's because it feels these companies are evolving into a threat against the first principles from which the Union has emerged.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  > I don't think that the legitimacy of the E.U. will be challenged overnight over a single decision regarding Google or Facebook. I figured from phtrivier's account of things that they were suggesting it's a political pattern for national leaders to blame the EU as unrepresentative. If it were a one-off I'd agree. > if the E.U. moves against Google and Facebook, it's because it feels these companies are evolving into a threat against the first principles from which the Union has emerged My point was about undermining perceived legitimacy. I've not commented on whether the regulations themselves are a good idea. Do you think phtrivier's account of things is mistaken?

Vespasian 6y ago

Brexit happened on 31.01.2020.

jlokier 6y ago
It did, technically. But the transition arrangements mean everything of importance changes at the end of 31.12.2020. So far it's just a lot of government adverts telling us how things are going to be worse and to prepare for it. How much extra paperwork, tariffs, expenses, licenses, applications-for-permission etc there will be come 31st December, how we can no longer conduct some kinds of business, how professional qualifications cease to be valid in Britain after 31st December, and how some people who are currently employed can no longer be employed from 1st January. All the adverts and policy effects that actually affect people are focused on 31.12.2020. (Reading between the lines it also means some people will no longer be permitted a bank account or the ability to rent a roof starting in the middle of next year, though the government prefers not to headline that unpalatable truth.) On 31.12.2020 things will change in a way that affects some of us harshly indeed. I'm British. As far as I'm concerned, Brexit proper happens for me on 31.12.2020 because that's the day I'm deprived of my previous life-long right to work, study and move my life to the other EU countries, which I have previously used, and hoped to use again :'( I absolutely hate that such a major freedom, and my family's freedom, and my EU citizenship, is being taken away so forcefully against my consent and without me breaking any laws. I was considering leaving Britain and emigrating to another EU country this year under EU-citizenship-grandfathering terms, but Covid made it infeasible. If the Brexit transition period had been extended I might have been able to do it next year, but it will cease to be possible after 31.12.2020. What a Christmas present. On 31st this year, around midnight, many of us will mark a day of darkness and sadness, as doors close on our life choices, and the Britain some of us had some sort of love and pride in some years ago finally ceases to exist.

adrianN 6y ago

Losing the EU-skeptic members could in the end be a good thing for the EU.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
Not when that EU skeptic member that left was also huge contributor to the EU budget, housed the second biggest financial center in the world, was the EU's biggest tech hub and is a five-eye nuclear military power with worldwide influence. I'm not from the UK but let's face it, the EU cannot afford to lose another big member like Germany or France. Smaller members can be Euro skeptics all they want as they'll just talk the talk but can't afford to walk the walk as they benefit the most from the EU. Sure, the UK never did like to play ball with the rest of the EU and had to be let go but that doesn't mean it's a win for either side. A weak and divided EU only benefits China and Russia and to a lesser degree, the US.
- Zenst 6y ago
  That's akin to turning a blind eye for the money - kinda like political lobbying by large companies that we see play out in many countries. Leaner is meaner and the UK leaving - sure if it was just for the money then that wasn't a relationship and the children have already grown up so to speak. What does worry me a bit is that tech/large companies have become in effect their own political parties with the amount of influence and impact they have had over the years. So any move by the EU now to rein them in, is a good thing and honestly, good to see that political lobbying by companies has some limits. 2021 is going to be a whole better year for all.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  While it's true that the UK departure is certainly impactful to the EU, it is not going to be as simple for the UK as the EU-antagonists (I hate the word "euroskeptic") make it believe As a reminder, Montreal was the biggest and most influential city in Canada before the independence movement and it lost a big chunk of influence even when the referendum went for No.
  - 6y ago

CaptArmchair 6y ago

I don't think that the legitimacy of the E.U. will be challenged overnight over a single decision regarding Google or Facebook. Brexit is just the latest chapter in a long European history. The same is true for the Union and the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties. European history isn't finished as long as there are Europeans. The U.K. wasn't a founding member of the E.U. nor has it ever been a stalwart partner of the E.U. ever since it joined the Union back in There has always been contention in the U.K. about being a E.U. member ever since it joined through the 1972 Treaty of Accession. The U.K. even held a referendum as early as 1975 about the question of remaining in the then E.C.C. (67.33% voted remain) The same is true for many other E.U. members, notably newer members who joined the union in the wake of the fall of the Berlin Wall and the breakup of the Warsaw Pact after 1991. Their incentive to join the union was just as much geo-strategic as it was economic. That doesn't mean there weren't voices opposition within those countries as well as elsewhere in the union. These two companies coming under scrutiny isn't just because they monopolize a consumer market. It's because they enable forces of contention - nationalism, identity politics - that have led to some very dark chapters in the recent European history. The E.U. such as it is today, originates from ideas that gestated right after WWII under such proponents as Winston Churchill, and the primary incentive was... creating a stable structure for peace on the continent. The E.C.S.C. as founded by the original 6 founding members (Schumann) was about consolidating the coal and steel markets exactly because those were enabling factors during both wars. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#Background And so, if the E.U. moves against Google and Facebook, it's because it feels these companies are evolving into a threat against the first principles from which the Union has emerged.

MaxBarraclough 6y ago
> I don't think that the legitimacy of the E.U. will be challenged overnight over a single decision regarding Google or Facebook. I figured from phtrivier's account of things that they were suggesting it's a political pattern for national leaders to blame the EU as unrepresentative. If it were a one-off I'd agree. > if the E.U. moves against Google and Facebook, it's because it feels these companies are evolving into a threat against the first principles from which the Union has emerged My point was about undermining perceived legitimacy. I've not commented on whether the regulations themselves are a good idea. Do you think phtrivier's account of things is mistaken?