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I thought I had read a lot about Tolkien and Lewis but I have never before read the theory that they consciously conspired together to inculcate generations of
by roca 6y ago
I thought I had read a lot about Tolkien and Lewis but I have never before read the theory that they consciously conspired together to inculcate generations of writers to rebuild English literature around medieval fantasy. Ingenious!
Dismissing the Haradrim and Calormenes as racist archetypes is lazy, though. Tolkien and Lewis went out of their way to invalidate that interpretation.
- Mauricebranagh 6y agoAnd Harry potter a medieval world remind me again where the steam train is in Malory :-) And Tolkien's successful campaign to put old English at the heat of English studies is well known by this point if you read any biography of Tolkien. True Tolkien and Lewis where "of their time" but they are no Lovecraft
- ck425 6y agoCan you share more info on how they invalidated the idea that the Haradrim and Calormenes are racist?
- roca 6y agohttps://www.goodreads.com/quotes/503737-it-was-sam-s-first-view-of-a-battle-of-men https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/503737-it-was-sam-s-first-v... Aravis is a Calormen, but a heroine and joins Shasta in an interracial marriage. And while it's true that Narnia is an idealized culture (like Gondor under its good kings) and therefore portrayed as superior to Calormene culture, Lewis is willing to elevate an aspect of the latter above English culture when he writes "In Calormen story-telling is a thing you're taught, just as English boys and girls are taught essay writing. The difference is that people want to hear the stories, whereas I never heard of anyone who wanted to read the essays." I don't think Tolkien or Lewis wholly escape the charge of racism; I think few people do, in their time or ours. I think they consciously resisted the idea that the English were some kind of master race.
- oa335 6y agoHow is it not a racist archetype? Good guys = white people from the north with British features and bad guys = dark people from the South with Middle Eastern features is in fact how the British thought of the world for hundreds of years... Tolkien and Lewis writings simply crystallized world views that were prevalent.
- matthewmorgan 6y agoSaying that some people with dark skin are bad is not being racist.
- oa335 6y agoThat’s not at all what I am saying, you are straw-manning.
- meekmind 6y ago> how the British thought > crystallized world views that were prevalent They were prevalent because they were correct. It has nothing to do with race. By the standards of history, nothing between two civilizations is as well documented as the protracted conflict (14 centuries) between the West and Islam [0]. You might argue that this perspective is biased, and you may be correct, but even critics of that perspective acknowledge that the long chain of historical events and accounts of historical events are undeniable, regardless of what you consider to be their cause. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37938325-sword-and-scimitar https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37938325-sword-and-scimi...
- goto11 6y agoThe idea of "The West versus Islam" as a clash of civilization is pretty recent. Probably only appeared after the end of the cold war and gained steam after 9/11. If you think of the crusades they were more like Roman Catholicism against Islam (and Judaism and Eastern Christianity). For example the crusaders attacked and plundered Constantinople which was Christian at the time - just not catholic. England have certainly been to war with France more than it has been to war with "Islam".
- mboto 6y agoI always thought that if you took the coastline of Turkey and created a mountain range out of it, you would have a basic representation of Mordor. Then took Gondor mainly based around the city of Minas Tirith, Rohan based mainly around Edoras etc. and you would have the Greek City states. Minas Ithil would be Troy or other overrun ex colonies of the early Greeks. And then you have the Haradrim et al and they look a lot like the Persian empire. There are many other aspects as well such as the last stand at the Battle of the Black Gate being a lot like the Battle of Marathon. So to me the Lord of the Rings in some parts often sounds like the defense against the Persian Empire (there are various aspects that don't fit of course), so to only see it through the myopic eyes of Identity politics is I agree lazy.
- goto11 6y agoHow about a map of Europe at the time of the invasion of the Huns? Mordor is the realm of the Huns, Rohan is the German tribes, Gondor is the Franks or perhaps the crumbling Roman Empire. The legends in the Niebelungelied is from this time.