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One more law from EU that won't accomplish anything. We should be grateful it doesn't look like they're screwing up small businesses (VATMESS) or the entire in

One more law from EU that won't accomplish anything. We should be grateful it doesn't look like they're screwing up small businesses (VATMESS) or the entire internet (cookie law, GDPR, copyright link tax) this time

StavrosK 6y ago
Another good thing the GDPR is good at is weeding out people's bad opinions. Whenever I see someone saying the GDPR is a net negative, it's a good indication to me that they don't know what they're talking about.
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  I'd rather be able to choose my own poison. Just because you care about your online data, it doesn't mean everyone does or should. With the way I use online platforms, the data online giants get from me is mostly useless.
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    "I don't need a good thing, therefore it's bad."
    - jokethrowaway 6y ago
      The reason I consider it bad is because it introduces a mandatory middleman between two consentient business parts. Just because people don't read contracts, it doesn't mean a nanny state should force companies to behave in a certain way. People can just not use those services or learn to read
      - StavrosK 6y ago
        Agreed, consumer protection laws are overreach, they should just make better people. Why didn't we think of that!
      - ben_w 6y ago
        Learn to read legalese? Unlike most people I’m comfortable actually reading contacts, but I’m self-aware enough to know that I probably misunderstand those contracts without even being able to identify which parts I am wrong about. The reason is simple symmetry: most people without computer science degrees make basic mistakes about computers, and I don’t have a law degree.
        soco 6y ago
        Huge legal departments fight for years with each other representing every other huge company. So it's not like a law degree solves problems (and some could argue a law degree helps create new sorts of problems)
        ben_w 6y ago
        Well yes, but to compare law degrees and computer science degrees: if a big legal battle is corporate pen-testers trying to hack an internal team’s security, my legal knowledge is someone who knows that CDs are different from USB sticks but can’t tell the difference between CDs and DVDs. To put it another way: imagine all you knew about computers came from watching films and CSI? That’s basically where I’m at with law.
      - 8note 6y ago
        Yeah, companies should be allowed to do anything they want. Walmart should be able to control all the roads going in and out of a town, denying all non Walmart groceries, then require residents to submit their nudes in order to shop at Walmart. It's all consentual because Walmart can get a contract, and no nanny state should be able to stop them.
  - M2Ys4U 6y ago
    The GDPR isn't an "online" law. It applies to processing personal data whether it's online or stored on scraps of paper in a filing cabinet.
    - BlueTemplar 6y ago
      I was wondering about that... Does it also take into account a small business phone book (which might be stored with personal contacts on a smartphone - oops!). More whimsically, what if my store has a parrot that remembers customer names?
      - M2Ys4U 6y ago
        >Does it also take into account a small business phone book (which might be stored with personal contacts on a smartphone - oops!) Yup, the GDPR covers those business contacts, to the extent that the contacts are named individuals rather than corporate ones (i.e. the contact stored is joe.bloggs@example.net rather than sales@example.org). There are clearly legitimate interests in doing so, though, so processing those data in that way should be permitted.
  - ginko 6y ago
    > I'd rather be able to choose my own poison. And you are. :) You're free to opt-in to all user tracking.
- GlennS 6y ago
  I think if someone wrote the GDPR is a net negative, that's actually a good sign in that it implies some actual consideration and weighing up of the advantages and disadvantages. I agree with your overall point though. It does make it very easy to spot who's just repeating someone else's opinion.
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    > I think if someone wrote the GDPR is a net negative, that's actually a good sign in that it implies some actual consideration and weighing up of the advantages and disadvantages. Then you're much more of an optimist than me. In most cases, I ask them why (to see if there's valid criticism I'm not aware of), and invariably I get back a mix of reactionary "government bad" or supercapitalist "my company shouldn't have to care about people!" I still haven't heard a good argument for why it's a net negative (though there's certainly good criticism of some aspects, but I still think it's a net positive by far).
harryf 6y ago
You think GDPR didn't accomplish anything? Companies around the world had to implement it to be able to do business with the EU, as one of the largest trading blocks by GDP. That means anyone storing any kind of consumer data had to consider a) how to report on what they were storing if asked and b) how to delete data if asked. Banks and others spent massive amounts of cash on implementing GDPR. It was a major breakthrough in getting corporations to take privacy seriously. Has it solved surveillance capitalism? No. And for most of us dumb consumers we're just "ugggh.... annoying modals about privacy on every website". But it's the first step towards having some kind of protection for consumers and it shows, despite lobbyists or otherwise, governments can have a real impact. And now the EU is building on that success.
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  As a customer, I don't want / care about protection and I will never trust an online platform, regardless of what your bureaucrats are promising to do. As a small business, that is just an extra pile of regulations and pain I need to deal with that previous competitors didn't have.
  - soco 6y ago
    Let's look at the arguments from the other side: If you don't use all those online platforms, do you need to complain about their dark patterns? They don't affect you then. As a customer of your small business, will you trust your online small business? If yes, why? I would think, exactly because those regulations force the online small business to comply. If not, maybe because said online small business is not trustworthy...
- jmnicolas 6y ago
  > "ugggh.... annoying modals about privacy on every website" and most of them use dark patterns to not let us disable analytics. There are websites with hundreds of "partners" that you have to disable one by one if you don't want to get their cookies. For once the EU is fighting the good fight, but they have no teeth. Look at the quagmire that is Google privacy options list.
kabes 6y ago
I agree that some laws miss their effect. Especially the cookie law turned out horrible. But I do consulting in multiple big enterprises in EU countries, and since GDPR each of them is very careful when dealing with user data and what data they collect. I didn't expect this big of an effect when GDPR got introduced.

StavrosK 6y ago

Another good thing the GDPR is good at is weeding out people's bad opinions. Whenever I see someone saying the GDPR is a net negative, it's a good indication to me that they don't know what they're talking about.

jokethrowaway 6y ago
I'd rather be able to choose my own poison. Just because you care about your online data, it doesn't mean everyone does or should. With the way I use online platforms, the data online giants get from me is mostly useless.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  "I don't need a good thing, therefore it's bad."
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    The reason I consider it bad is because it introduces a mandatory middleman between two consentient business parts. Just because people don't read contracts, it doesn't mean a nanny state should force companies to behave in a certain way. People can just not use those services or learn to read
    - StavrosK 6y ago
      Agreed, consumer protection laws are overreach, they should just make better people. Why didn't we think of that!
    - ben_w 6y ago
      Learn to read legalese? Unlike most people I’m comfortable actually reading contacts, but I’m self-aware enough to know that I probably misunderstand those contracts without even being able to identify which parts I am wrong about. The reason is simple symmetry: most people without computer science degrees make basic mistakes about computers, and I don’t have a law degree.
      - soco 6y ago
        Huge legal departments fight for years with each other representing every other huge company. So it's not like a law degree solves problems (and some could argue a law degree helps create new sorts of problems)
        ben_w 6y ago
        Well yes, but to compare law degrees and computer science degrees: if a big legal battle is corporate pen-testers trying to hack an internal team’s security, my legal knowledge is someone who knows that CDs are different from USB sticks but can’t tell the difference between CDs and DVDs. To put it another way: imagine all you knew about computers came from watching films and CSI? That’s basically where I’m at with law.
    - 8note 6y ago
      Yeah, companies should be allowed to do anything they want. Walmart should be able to control all the roads going in and out of a town, denying all non Walmart groceries, then require residents to submit their nudes in order to shop at Walmart. It's all consentual because Walmart can get a contract, and no nanny state should be able to stop them.
- M2Ys4U 6y ago
  The GDPR isn't an "online" law. It applies to processing personal data whether it's online or stored on scraps of paper in a filing cabinet.
  - BlueTemplar 6y ago
    I was wondering about that... Does it also take into account a small business phone book (which might be stored with personal contacts on a smartphone - oops!). More whimsically, what if my store has a parrot that remembers customer names?
    - M2Ys4U 6y ago
      >Does it also take into account a small business phone book (which might be stored with personal contacts on a smartphone - oops!) Yup, the GDPR covers those business contacts, to the extent that the contacts are named individuals rather than corporate ones (i.e. the contact stored is joe.bloggs@example.net rather than sales@example.org). There are clearly legitimate interests in doing so, though, so processing those data in that way should be permitted.
- ginko 6y ago
  > I'd rather be able to choose my own poison. And you are. :) You're free to opt-in to all user tracking.
GlennS 6y ago
I think if someone wrote the GDPR is a net negative, that's actually a good sign in that it implies some actual consideration and weighing up of the advantages and disadvantages. I agree with your overall point though. It does make it very easy to spot who's just repeating someone else's opinion.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  > I think if someone wrote the GDPR is a net negative, that's actually a good sign in that it implies some actual consideration and weighing up of the advantages and disadvantages. Then you're much more of an optimist than me. In most cases, I ask them why (to see if there's valid criticism I'm not aware of), and invariably I get back a mix of reactionary "government bad" or supercapitalist "my company shouldn't have to care about people!" I still haven't heard a good argument for why it's a net negative (though there's certainly good criticism of some aspects, but I still think it's a net positive by far).

harryf 6y ago

You think GDPR didn't accomplish anything? Companies around the world had to implement it to be able to do business with the EU, as one of the largest trading blocks by GDP. That means anyone storing any kind of consumer data had to consider a) how to report on what they were storing if asked and b) how to delete data if asked. Banks and others spent massive amounts of cash on implementing GDPR. It was a major breakthrough in getting corporations to take privacy seriously. Has it solved surveillance capitalism? No. And for most of us dumb consumers we're just "ugggh.... annoying modals about privacy on every website". But it's the first step towards having some kind of protection for consumers and it shows, despite lobbyists or otherwise, governments can have a real impact. And now the EU is building on that success.

jokethrowaway 6y ago
As a customer, I don't want / care about protection and I will never trust an online platform, regardless of what your bureaucrats are promising to do. As a small business, that is just an extra pile of regulations and pain I need to deal with that previous competitors didn't have.
- soco 6y ago
  Let's look at the arguments from the other side: If you don't use all those online platforms, do you need to complain about their dark patterns? They don't affect you then. As a customer of your small business, will you trust your online small business? If yes, why? I would think, exactly because those regulations force the online small business to comply. If not, maybe because said online small business is not trustworthy...
jmnicolas 6y ago
> "ugggh.... annoying modals about privacy on every website" and most of them use dark patterns to not let us disable analytics. There are websites with hundreds of "partners" that you have to disable one by one if you don't want to get their cookies. For once the EU is fighting the good fight, but they have no teeth. Look at the quagmire that is Google privacy options list.

kabes 6y ago

I agree that some laws miss their effect. Especially the cookie law turned out horrible. But I do consulting in multiple big enterprises in EU countries, and since GDPR each of them is very careful when dealing with user data and what data they collect. I didn't expect this big of an effect when GDPR got introduced.