6 ms·

I think this is generally not such a great idea, quite a few things end up getting achieved because somebody is punching above their station. I think you learn

by bArray 6y ago

I think this is generally not such a great idea, quite a few things end up getting achieved because somebody is punching above their station. I think you learn the most when you steam train into something and get stuck - then figure out how to get out of it. In general, I think it would be better to assume that you're not more intelligent than the person you are speaking to (at least on a particular subject) and that you may not be the smartest person in the room. That's not to say you are below average, but that there is still something you can learn from at least one person in your company.

runawaybottle 6y ago
I’d say both shifts in mindset is a tactical decision. Sometimes you really need to have faith in yourself to achieve something. Sometimes you need to remove your ego to sustain something. Every situation is different, but I would agree one should not give up tactical options in the greater strategic battle of coping with life and the onslaught of dealing with people.
- Flex247A 6y ago
  I for example, have problem maintaining a balance. Is there really a way of doing this better?
  - runawaybottle 6y ago
    Practice. Relinquish a belief and deal with the fallout (internally with the psychological hit to the ego, modulate the impact it has on you), then strive for something that may or may not be achievable (and modulate again, not letting the attainment be your everything, and not letting failure be overly impactful). It’s tough when you’re insecure because your primary mental fortification is an inflated ego. Just get used to (practicing) inflating and deflating the ego (ideally just keeping it half filled with air) so you literally are not a zero-self-esteem mess out there in the world. If you have no practice with this, every time life gives you an opportunity or challenge, you’ll make judgement mistakes.
    - Flex247A 6y ago
      Thanks for the detailed reply!
anonytrary 6y ago
I think the people who punch above their weight are the ones who genuinely want to solve the problems in said domain. It is a signal of drive. If you are working in a domain and not punching above your station, then you are probably not driven in that domain. Coasters get nowhere. People who push boundaries are often the most likely ones to get past them.
- st1x7 6y ago
  > It is a signal of drive. That's one possibility. The other is that you're delusional about your own abilities. There is a skill in being able to tell the difference between these two.
  - anonytrary 6y ago
    Skills are transferable. If you are highly adept at X, Y, and Z, then I would pay attention to you if you're trying to punch above your weight at W.
Barrin92 6y ago
>quite a few things end up getting achieved because somebody is punching above their station. I think you learn the most when you steam train into something and get stuck - then figure out how to get out of it. You can do that without deluding yourself into thinking you're smarter than you actually are, in fact it probably puts (the very likely) failure into a much healthier context. Someone who is average can do exceptional things depending on the circumstances, and that is also really another point, not overplaying your own role in your success will make you pay attention to the people and the circumstance you rely on, and the huge role luck plays. There is no need to perceive oneself as exceptional to take risk, that's just a broken celebrity culture. What I'm saying is, be Samwise, basically.
afarrell 6y ago
> I think you learn the most when you steam train into something and get stuck - then figure out how to get out of it. Warning: Please don't apply this to _other_ people who say they need help with something. If someone comes to you with a problem they say that they are stuck on and can't figure out, please don't respond solely by giving them encouragement to just keep plugging along. Either encourage them to find someone else with time to listen or give your time to listen. 1. It feels incredibly _isolating_ to be told something like, "Thats just imposter syndrome. I'm sure you'll figure it out." 2. It is much harder to focus and succeed when you're trying to push yourself down a path you think is probably fruitless. 3. It is much harder to solve problems when you don't have a sounding board. When you can have conversational space to teach someone else about the problem space, paths open up.
- domano 6y ago
  I've had some good experiences encouraging people to push on, especially when i suspected that they suffer from imposter syndrome. Probably there is no absolute truth here.
  - afarrell 6y ago
    It's nice that your experience was great. > no absolute truth here Correct, which is why listening is important. It is how to know the experience _of the person you encouraged_.
- bsder 6y ago
  > 2. It is much harder to focus and succeed when you're trying to push yourself down a path you think is probably fruitless. This is actually the big one. Validation that they are making progress allows people to go back to banging on a problem. If one of my senior engineers claims to be stuck on some technical problems and comes to me asking for extra technical advice, we're probably going to spend some time digging at things. That's the realm of sounding board. However, I may have given an assignment to an intern specifically so that they will go learn something that I think they need to learn by working it out. If they come to me, I'll give them some limited advice, validate their progress to this point, but I'm probably going to send them back and tell them to bang their head on it some more. One of the lessons junior engineers need to learn is "Sometimes the senior guys don't actually know the answer and part of your work is actually figuring it out." And sometimes the task really is just a slog. Too many junior engineers think everything can be made "easy and quick" like a textbook question. However, if someone is slogging via brute force and comes to me I'll look at it and say something like: "Yup, you seem to be going the right way. And it looks like you're about 10% done. Keep going." The validation that they're not going down a blind path is the most important thing.

by bArray 6y ago

runawaybottle 6y ago

I’d say both shifts in mindset is a tactical decision. Sometimes you really need to have faith in yourself to achieve something. Sometimes you need to remove your ego to sustain something. Every situation is different, but I would agree one should not give up tactical options in the greater strategic battle of coping with life and the onslaught of dealing with people.

Flex247A 6y ago
I for example, have problem maintaining a balance. Is there really a way of doing this better?
- runawaybottle 6y ago
  Practice. Relinquish a belief and deal with the fallout (internally with the psychological hit to the ego, modulate the impact it has on you), then strive for something that may or may not be achievable (and modulate again, not letting the attainment be your everything, and not letting failure be overly impactful). It’s tough when you’re insecure because your primary mental fortification is an inflated ego. Just get used to (practicing) inflating and deflating the ego (ideally just keeping it half filled with air) so you literally are not a zero-self-esteem mess out there in the world. If you have no practice with this, every time life gives you an opportunity or challenge, you’ll make judgement mistakes.
  - Flex247A 6y ago
    Thanks for the detailed reply!

anonytrary 6y ago

I think the people who punch above their weight are the ones who genuinely want to solve the problems in said domain. It is a signal of drive. If you are working in a domain and not punching above your station, then you are probably not driven in that domain. Coasters get nowhere. People who push boundaries are often the most likely ones to get past them.

st1x7 6y ago
> It is a signal of drive. That's one possibility. The other is that you're delusional about your own abilities. There is a skill in being able to tell the difference between these two.
- anonytrary 6y ago
  Skills are transferable. If you are highly adept at X, Y, and Z, then I would pay attention to you if you're trying to punch above your weight at W.

Barrin92 6y ago

>quite a few things end up getting achieved because somebody is punching above their station. I think you learn the most when you steam train into something and get stuck - then figure out how to get out of it. You can do that without deluding yourself into thinking you're smarter than you actually are, in fact it probably puts (the very likely) failure into a much healthier context. Someone who is average can do exceptional things depending on the circumstances, and that is also really another point, not overplaying your own role in your success will make you pay attention to the people and the circumstance you rely on, and the huge role luck plays. There is no need to perceive oneself as exceptional to take risk, that's just a broken celebrity culture. What I'm saying is, be Samwise, basically.

afarrell 6y ago

> I think you learn the most when you steam train into something and get stuck - then figure out how to get out of it. Warning: Please don't apply this to _other_ people who say they need help with something. If someone comes to you with a problem they say that they are stuck on and can't figure out, please don't respond solely by giving them encouragement to just keep plugging along. Either encourage them to find someone else with time to listen or give your time to listen. 1. It feels incredibly _isolating_ to be told something like, "Thats just imposter syndrome. I'm sure you'll figure it out." 2. It is much harder to focus and succeed when you're trying to push yourself down a path you think is probably fruitless. 3. It is much harder to solve problems when you don't have a sounding board. When you can have conversational space to teach someone else about the problem space, paths open up.

domano 6y ago
I've had some good experiences encouraging people to push on, especially when i suspected that they suffer from imposter syndrome. Probably there is no absolute truth here.
- afarrell 6y ago
  It's nice that your experience was great. > no absolute truth here Correct, which is why listening is important. It is how to know the experience _of the person you encouraged_.
bsder 6y ago
> 2. It is much harder to focus and succeed when you're trying to push yourself down a path you think is probably fruitless. This is actually the big one. Validation that they are making progress allows people to go back to banging on a problem. If one of my senior engineers claims to be stuck on some technical problems and comes to me asking for extra technical advice, we're probably going to spend some time digging at things. That's the realm of sounding board. However, I may have given an assignment to an intern specifically so that they will go learn something that I think they need to learn by working it out. If they come to me, I'll give them some limited advice, validate their progress to this point, but I'm probably going to send them back and tell them to bang their head on it some more. One of the lessons junior engineers need to learn is "Sometimes the senior guys don't actually know the answer and part of your work is actually figuring it out." And sometimes the task really is just a slog. Too many junior engineers think everything can be made "easy and quick" like a textbook question. However, if someone is slogging via brute force and comes to me I'll look at it and say something like: "Yup, you seem to be going the right way. And it looks like you're about 10% done. Keep going." The validation that they're not going down a blind path is the most important thing.