5 ms·

...with specific hardware acceleration for certain functions that can't be emulated in software, sure. The question I have is: will this lead to therapies that

...with specific hardware acceleration for certain functions that can't be emulated in software, sure. The question I have is: will this lead to therapies that can help people with gender dysphoria become comfortable in their unmodified bodies?

orthecreedence 6y ago
My immediate reaction to this idea is that it's effectively "conversion therapy" but then after I let it sit for a while longer, it seems like it's really yet another option/tool available to people. I do really have to wonder how it would be used (ie, forced-detransing someone) but on the other hand, if someone is not comfortable in their body and has no means to modify their body to their liking, could this help them in the long run? Or are they supposed to live in ongoing anguish because one part of them doesn't line up with another part and they can do nothing about it? This is an interesting idea, with wide-ranging ethical implications.
- klyrs 6y ago
  Not "effectively". It is conversion therapy. The situation you're describing is very uncommon, except in places that make it exceedingly difficult for people to transition. So that's where such a therapy would be applied the most. So the ethical question is "is it okay to eradicate a population because they will be otherwise oppressed?" Looking back a few decades: Turing was given estrogen to "cure" his homosexuality. Is that an "interesting idea" too? Granted, it sounds much easier than curing society of its homophobia and transphobia...
  - prirun 6y ago
    Forced anything is obviously bad. But if there is the possibility of taking drugs to temporarily alter ones gender identity, perhaps to match their body, or the sex they are attracted to, it would give people with these issues more options to explore. Perhaps they would be happy in their altered state and not need to undergo years of therapy or surgical procedures. Or perhaps seeing the "other side" would convince them that they need to stay true to their original self, at any cost. This could eliminate a lot of internal self-doubt and "what if" debate.
    - klyrs 6y ago
      I've got skin in the game, but it sounds like you don't. So let's put the shoe on the other foot. Would you choose to take a drug intended to induce gender dysphoria, or change your sexual orientation? Would you want to enter a relationship with somebody for whom it would be necessary to pop a pill daily just to remain attracted° to them? Or conversely, would you want to be in a relationship with somebody who was only attracted to you because of that pill they were taking? And yeah, forced anything is bad. I've been forced to not transition, and it was utter hell. Just because you think that this could have good uses, doesn't erase the fact that being transgender is a capital offense de jure or de facto, in much of the world today. Development of such a treatment would be immediately followed by it being forced on people.
      - CryptoPunk 6y ago
        >>a drug intended to induce gender dysphoria Why would someone want to develop gender dysphoria? It is associated with a significantly heightened risk for multiple mental illnesses and suicide. It would make sense that someone would want to get rid of gender dysphoria, not the other way around. >>I've been forced to not transition, and it was utter hell. How were you forced to not transition? Did someone threaten to punish you in the event that you made an attempt to? Or was it just a matter of the procedure not being available to you? Anyway, would it be hell to not transition, if you didn't have gender dysphoria? >>Development of such a treatment would be immediately followed by it being forced on people. This is speculation, and your speculation on how such a treatment would be used doesn't create a moral justification to exert totalitarian force on others to prevent them from developing the treatment.
        klyrs 6y ago
        > How were you forced to not transition? Did someone threaten to punish you in the event that you made an attempt to? Or was it just a matter of the procedure not being available to you? This is a cross examination, not a curious conversation. Read the site guidelines; I'm not going to share that very painful story with you, because you're not doing this in good faith.
- core-questions 6y ago
  > (ie, forced-detransing someone) Why assume that this is the kind of application that would be used? Do you really think it's so uncommon that someone might have the seeds of these feelings and really rather that they just go away? If it's something that can be handled therapeutically and allow the person to live in the skin they were born in without dysphoria, doesn't that seem like something an awful lot of people would probably consider, especially if it's not invasive?
  - orthecreedence 6y ago
    > Why assume that this is the kind of application that would be used? I guess because trans people are treated like lepers and because conversion therapy used to be a pretty common thing. > Do you really think it's so uncommon that someone might have the seeds of these feelings and really rather that they just go away? No, I don't think it's uncommon. Which is why I engaged your post instead of downvoting and moving on. > If it's something that can be handled therapeutically and allow the person to live in the skin they were born in without dysphoria, doesn't that seem like something an awful lot of people would probably consider, especially if it's not invasive? And, we're back to conversion therapy. I don't necessarily disagree with you here. I think my reservations don't come from the therapy itself, but rather the circumstances under which it's recommended or administered. For instance, is it better to take HRT and be closer to the person you feel by default? Or is it better to take b-yr-c15-53lf trans-blockers to get back to living your happy norm life? Is it being pushed by a therapist? Am I discovering it myself? It brings up a lot of questions about vulnerability, self, identity, etc.
    - core-questions 6y ago
      > trans people are treated like lepers Says you; here in Canada at least transpeople are a protected class and have as many or more rights than the next person. This is not the same thing at all as conversion therapy, and it is unreasonable to suggest that there should not be research and development into techniques, therapeutics, and methods to help people who would rather not actually be trans. This is not mutually exclusive with allowing people to be trans, or granting them protected class status! It's merely another option, and in no way is it implied that it should be forced on anyone. In fact, "conversion therapy", as long as it is 100% consensual on the part of the person taking it, should be fine. Why shouldn't it? Because it won't work? Homeopathy and plenty of other things that "won't work" are legal. It's the lack of consent that is the moral issue, not the fact that someone might want assistance at living a simpler life, which being cisgendered no doubt is, at least at this time. > For instance, is it better to take HRT and be closer to the person you feel by default? This really depends on the outcome that you're after, but the higher-after-HRT-and-operations suicide rate of transpeople makes me wonder whether it's actually the better outcome or not. Since this is 100% contextual and differs widely by individual, the only correct standpoint in a free society is to allow both options. > Is it being pushed by a therapist? Some therapists are going to be gatekeepers, some are going to push you towards HRT, it's luck of the draw at this point based on the personal biases and ethics of the therapist. The fact is, we're supposed to be recognizing and validating people's feelings; and it's entirely believable that there is a class of people who feel gender dysphoria and simply want it to go away. These people are underserved by the current system.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

orthecreedence 6y ago

My immediate reaction to this idea is that it's effectively "conversion therapy" but then after I let it sit for a while longer, it seems like it's really yet another option/tool available to people. I do really have to wonder how it would be used (ie, forced-detransing someone) but on the other hand, if someone is not comfortable in their body and has no means to modify their body to their liking, could this help them in the long run? Or are they supposed to live in ongoing anguish because one part of them doesn't line up with another part and they can do nothing about it? This is an interesting idea, with wide-ranging ethical implications.

klyrs 6y ago
Not "effectively". It is conversion therapy. The situation you're describing is very uncommon, except in places that make it exceedingly difficult for people to transition. So that's where such a therapy would be applied the most. So the ethical question is "is it okay to eradicate a population because they will be otherwise oppressed?" Looking back a few decades: Turing was given estrogen to "cure" his homosexuality. Is that an "interesting idea" too? Granted, it sounds much easier than curing society of its homophobia and transphobia...
- prirun 6y ago
  Forced anything is obviously bad. But if there is the possibility of taking drugs to temporarily alter ones gender identity, perhaps to match their body, or the sex they are attracted to, it would give people with these issues more options to explore. Perhaps they would be happy in their altered state and not need to undergo years of therapy or surgical procedures. Or perhaps seeing the "other side" would convince them that they need to stay true to their original self, at any cost. This could eliminate a lot of internal self-doubt and "what if" debate.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    I've got skin in the game, but it sounds like you don't. So let's put the shoe on the other foot. Would you choose to take a drug intended to induce gender dysphoria, or change your sexual orientation? Would you want to enter a relationship with somebody for whom it would be necessary to pop a pill daily just to remain attracted° to them? Or conversely, would you want to be in a relationship with somebody who was only attracted to you because of that pill they were taking? And yeah, forced anything is bad. I've been forced to not transition, and it was utter hell. Just because you think that this could have good uses, doesn't erase the fact that being transgender is a capital offense de jure or de facto, in much of the world today. Development of such a treatment would be immediately followed by it being forced on people.
    - CryptoPunk 6y ago
      >>a drug intended to induce gender dysphoria Why would someone want to develop gender dysphoria? It is associated with a significantly heightened risk for multiple mental illnesses and suicide. It would make sense that someone would want to get rid of gender dysphoria, not the other way around. >>I've been forced to not transition, and it was utter hell. How were you forced to not transition? Did someone threaten to punish you in the event that you made an attempt to? Or was it just a matter of the procedure not being available to you? Anyway, would it be hell to not transition, if you didn't have gender dysphoria? >>Development of such a treatment would be immediately followed by it being forced on people. This is speculation, and your speculation on how such a treatment would be used doesn't create a moral justification to exert totalitarian force on others to prevent them from developing the treatment.
      - klyrs 6y ago
        > How were you forced to not transition? Did someone threaten to punish you in the event that you made an attempt to? Or was it just a matter of the procedure not being available to you? This is a cross examination, not a curious conversation. Read the site guidelines; I'm not going to share that very painful story with you, because you're not doing this in good faith.
core-questions 6y ago
> (ie, forced-detransing someone) Why assume that this is the kind of application that would be used? Do you really think it's so uncommon that someone might have the seeds of these feelings and really rather that they just go away? If it's something that can be handled therapeutically and allow the person to live in the skin they were born in without dysphoria, doesn't that seem like something an awful lot of people would probably consider, especially if it's not invasive?
- orthecreedence 6y ago
  > Why assume that this is the kind of application that would be used? I guess because trans people are treated like lepers and because conversion therapy used to be a pretty common thing. > Do you really think it's so uncommon that someone might have the seeds of these feelings and really rather that they just go away? No, I don't think it's uncommon. Which is why I engaged your post instead of downvoting and moving on. > If it's something that can be handled therapeutically and allow the person to live in the skin they were born in without dysphoria, doesn't that seem like something an awful lot of people would probably consider, especially if it's not invasive? And, we're back to conversion therapy. I don't necessarily disagree with you here. I think my reservations don't come from the therapy itself, but rather the circumstances under which it's recommended or administered. For instance, is it better to take HRT and be closer to the person you feel by default? Or is it better to take b-yr-c15-53lf trans-blockers to get back to living your happy norm life? Is it being pushed by a therapist? Am I discovering it myself? It brings up a lot of questions about vulnerability, self, identity, etc.
  - core-questions 6y ago
    > trans people are treated like lepers Says you; here in Canada at least transpeople are a protected class and have as many or more rights than the next person. This is not the same thing at all as conversion therapy, and it is unreasonable to suggest that there should not be research and development into techniques, therapeutics, and methods to help people who would rather not actually be trans. This is not mutually exclusive with allowing people to be trans, or granting them protected class status! It's merely another option, and in no way is it implied that it should be forced on anyone. In fact, "conversion therapy", as long as it is 100% consensual on the part of the person taking it, should be fine. Why shouldn't it? Because it won't work? Homeopathy and plenty of other things that "won't work" are legal. It's the lack of consent that is the moral issue, not the fact that someone might want assistance at living a simpler life, which being cisgendered no doubt is, at least at this time. > For instance, is it better to take HRT and be closer to the person you feel by default? This really depends on the outcome that you're after, but the higher-after-HRT-and-operations suicide rate of transpeople makes me wonder whether it's actually the better outcome or not. Since this is 100% contextual and differs widely by individual, the only correct standpoint in a free society is to allow both options. > Is it being pushed by a therapist? Some therapists are going to be gatekeepers, some are going to push you towards HRT, it's luck of the draw at this point based on the personal biases and ethics of the therapist. The fact is, we're supposed to be recognizing and validating people's feelings; and it's entirely believable that there is a class of people who feel gender dysphoria and simply want it to go away. These people are underserved by the current system.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]