5 ms·

What's your point? What does this have to do with PH hosting (and dragging their feet about taking down) and making money off of real rape/revenge/child porn to

What's your point? What does this have to do with PH hosting (and dragging their feet about taking down) and making money off of real rape/revenge/child porn today? And out of curiosity, what makes you think I am "misunderstanding" this? You reckon I wouldn't be mad about PH making $ off rape videos if only I knew that in 15 years we could make deepfake porn for cheap? "In the future, everyone will be world-famous for 15 minutes" great but what's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

horsawlarway 6y ago
I mean that all the things you're upset about are going to happen at scale. Upset about revenge porn? What if it's just a really close copy of your face/body generated by machine, stitched together in a very believable fashion? You could maybe claim ownership of your likeness, but I don't think it's going to be possible to really enforce - Many people look near identical already. Or they add a mole here or there and claim - look - clearly not you! And it won't be you, but does it really matter? How do you prove it's not you to other people without stripping down? Upset about rape videos? I am too when it's a real person. I find it much harder to argue against when it's a performance (current porn) or when it's not any person at all. Who has standing in court? No one was harmed. Are you upset that someone was raped, or are you upset that someone is making money off of rape videos? Because there will be generated videos of this content, and it will absolutely be customizable to look like people want it to. Does it matter if the video is real? And removing this content won't stop rapes at all. So is it somehow worse if a real rape victim has fake rape porn made of them? If so, why? --- Basically - My point is that you're making an appeal based on a moral system that I don't think is going to survive the coming wave of generated imagery. I too have serious issues with all of the real crimes you dislike, but I don't think you can genuinely equate video content with the crime itself - They happen to be tightly coupled now, but that's going to change. This is NOT an open and shut victory here. I'm not really sure there's a victory to be had. Maybe the best we'll get is a world where even when real revenge porn is uploaded, no one will believe it's real...
- ardy42 6y ago
  > Upset about revenge porn? What if it's just a really close copy of your face/body generated by machine, stitched together in a very believable fashion? You could maybe claim ownership of your likeness, but I don't think it's going to be possible to really enforce - Many people look near identical already. Or they add a mole here or there and claim - look - clearly not you! People make all kinds of claims all the time, including transparently self-serving ones like your example, but that doesn't mean anyone buys them. I'm pretty sure what's going to happen is the law will make it clear that porn generated from your likeness and distributed without your consent is as illegal as revenge porn. Then a bunch of people who did it anyway will go to jail and that will put a strong chilling effect on the whole thing. In most cases, the people with the motive an ability to make machine-generated porn of a particular person will be relatively easy to find.
  - horsawlarway 6y ago
    Because we've seen this so clearly with fake celebrity porn? And those are folks with the actual resources to go after it in courts. > In most cases, the people with the motive an ability to make machine-generated porn of a particular person will be relatively easy to find. I just find this incredibly difficult to believe, unless this "ban on user content" extends to a ban on general computing. And maybe that's where we'll end up, but I think that's a much more malicious result than generated porn. Or maybe anonymity will disappear online, which I find fairly scary, but is another clear thrust we're seeing. Also - What about the absolutely bonkers industry that will be consent based generated porn? We're already headed that route now with 3d scanning of actors/actresses, and lord knows - I think a lot of folks in the porn industry would be happy to get digitally imaged and then not have to actually engage in the physical process of making porn. --- I think this is a real and genuine ethics question that we don't have good answers to right now. I don't really have a problem with PH pulling down anonymous user content (hell - private company, they can make their own decisions) but I also don't really think it's going to stop this kind of behavior, and it certainly doesn't untangle complex social questions around what's right and wrong in this space. I will say - I think we're undergoing another sexual revolution right now, it's just more subtle because it's less about what folks do or wear in public, and more about what folks do in private. I'm not entirely sure how you legislate on this topic either - What's art? What's porn? can you really "Know it when you see it"? What if you unintentionally make imagery that just resembles a real person? Those are all questions that depend on social context at the time they're legislated on, and they set a tone going forward. Basically - My whole point is that this is not some clear win, and again - I'm not entirely sure there's a win anywhere in this discussion. I think this is just PH skirting around the issue for monetary reasons because they happen to be big enough at this point that they can do without anonymous submissions. I will say - I'm fairly sure any "it's simple and this will solve it!" response is utter bullshit.

horsawlarway 6y ago

I mean that all the things you're upset about are going to happen at scale. Upset about revenge porn? What if it's just a really close copy of your face/body generated by machine, stitched together in a very believable fashion? You could maybe claim ownership of your likeness, but I don't think it's going to be possible to really enforce - Many people look near identical already. Or they add a mole here or there and claim - look - clearly not you! And it won't be you, but does it really matter? How do you prove it's not you to other people without stripping down? Upset about rape videos? I am too when it's a real person. I find it much harder to argue against when it's a performance (current porn) or when it's not any person at all. Who has standing in court? No one was harmed. Are you upset that someone was raped, or are you upset that someone is making money off of rape videos? Because there will be generated videos of this content, and it will absolutely be customizable to look like people want it to. Does it matter if the video is real? And removing this content won't stop rapes at all. So is it somehow worse if a real rape victim has fake rape porn made of them? If so, why? --- Basically - My point is that you're making an appeal based on a moral system that I don't think is going to survive the coming wave of generated imagery. I too have serious issues with all of the real crimes you dislike, but I don't think you can genuinely equate video content with the crime itself - They happen to be tightly coupled now, but that's going to change. This is NOT an open and shut victory here. I'm not really sure there's a victory to be had. Maybe the best we'll get is a world where even when real revenge porn is uploaded, no one will believe it's real...

ardy42 6y ago
> Upset about revenge porn? What if it's just a really close copy of your face/body generated by machine, stitched together in a very believable fashion? You could maybe claim ownership of your likeness, but I don't think it's going to be possible to really enforce - Many people look near identical already. Or they add a mole here or there and claim - look - clearly not you! People make all kinds of claims all the time, including transparently self-serving ones like your example, but that doesn't mean anyone buys them. I'm pretty sure what's going to happen is the law will make it clear that porn generated from your likeness and distributed without your consent is as illegal as revenge porn. Then a bunch of people who did it anyway will go to jail and that will put a strong chilling effect on the whole thing. In most cases, the people with the motive an ability to make machine-generated porn of a particular person will be relatively easy to find.
- horsawlarway 6y ago
  Because we've seen this so clearly with fake celebrity porn? And those are folks with the actual resources to go after it in courts. > In most cases, the people with the motive an ability to make machine-generated porn of a particular person will be relatively easy to find. I just find this incredibly difficult to believe, unless this "ban on user content" extends to a ban on general computing. And maybe that's where we'll end up, but I think that's a much more malicious result than generated porn. Or maybe anonymity will disappear online, which I find fairly scary, but is another clear thrust we're seeing. Also - What about the absolutely bonkers industry that will be consent based generated porn? We're already headed that route now with 3d scanning of actors/actresses, and lord knows - I think a lot of folks in the porn industry would be happy to get digitally imaged and then not have to actually engage in the physical process of making porn. --- I think this is a real and genuine ethics question that we don't have good answers to right now. I don't really have a problem with PH pulling down anonymous user content (hell - private company, they can make their own decisions) but I also don't really think it's going to stop this kind of behavior, and it certainly doesn't untangle complex social questions around what's right and wrong in this space. I will say - I think we're undergoing another sexual revolution right now, it's just more subtle because it's less about what folks do or wear in public, and more about what folks do in private. I'm not entirely sure how you legislate on this topic either - What's art? What's porn? can you really "Know it when you see it"? What if you unintentionally make imagery that just resembles a real person? Those are all questions that depend on social context at the time they're legislated on, and they set a tone going forward. Basically - My whole point is that this is not some clear win, and again - I'm not entirely sure there's a win anywhere in this discussion. I think this is just PH skirting around the issue for monetary reasons because they happen to be big enough at this point that they can do without anonymous submissions. I will say - I'm fairly sure any "it's simple and this will solve it!" response is utter bullshit.