4 ms·

It's amazing to me that something as innocuous as, "Professional conduct includes at least an attempt at constructive criticism as opposed to venting" is now a

It's amazing to me that something as innocuous as, "Professional conduct includes at least an attempt at constructive criticism as opposed to venting" is now a heretical concept on this website.

hyperdimension 6y ago
Doesn't sound like 'venting' to me. Eye strain and inscrutable UI elements sound like concrete complaints. Whether they were phrased diplomatically, I'm not sure, and I'd concede it might be construed as venting depending on the delivery. That being said, assuming it was brought up constructively, I see nothing wrong with the criticism except for the specific designers' refusal to consider it.
- KirinDave 6y ago
  It would be great if it was brought up constructively. However, this thread appears to be about mocking the concept of psychological safety in the workplace.
  - hyperdimension 6y ago
    I personally can't really see any evidence of mocking or any psychologically-unsafe ideas in any of the comments in this thread, so I'm not sure what you're referring to. You can criticize a product (design) without disparaging the person who created it, and I hope we all can take constructive criticism without making it personal. Good UI design shouldn't be strictly for design's sake, so it can be frustrating when something is difficult to use because 'looking good' was prioritized over usability. There's a quote I've read here that I like and think is appropriate: "Accessibility is for everybody."
    - KirinDave 6y ago
      Really, so this quote by ewmiller that I responded to: > I wonder how long my employment would last if I just stopped doing a good job and then said that as a response to any effort by my manager or teammates to criticize my output. was not a direct attack on the notion that professional conduct should include some degree of psychological safety? Or perhaps this post [0] that says: > In regular companies, employees who are bad at their jobs shouldn't feel safe, as they are likely to be fired. I'm a Google SRE. I'm not actually a big fan of the Gmail interface either (and it'd be better if they actually followed material design, imo). But this spirit is fundamentally opposed to people in corporate environments doing good work. Blameless portmortems exist for a reason. Because otherwise, every systemic or personal failure devolves into a scapegoating competition designed to find and remove the most vulnerable member of the team. My criticism is directed specifically at folks suggesting that internally peers at my workplace should harass designers. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25422855 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25422855
artvark11 6y ago
This website, like all other online communities, exists in a bubble and is very far from reality.
IggleSniggle 6y ago
I really don’t think that’s the situation being described here.
- KirinDave 6y ago
  Obviously I do, and I note several replies here that strongly suggest that's how other people took it as well.
robertlagrant 6y ago
No one mentioned heresy. No one mentioned venting. No one mentioned constructive criticism. Other than that, good job.
- KirinDave 6y ago
  And yet that's almost certainly what people were describing by mocking the notion of psychological safety in the workplace.
mpalmer 6y ago
Criticism: unacceptable unless totally devoid of emotion Responding to criticism: bring your whole emotional self! guard your mental "safety" with your life!
- KirinDave 6y ago
  The notion of being passionate without being derisive just isn't an option, I guess?
  - mpalmer 6y ago
    Derision makes an unmistakable point. Is nothing worthy of derision? I say nothing rather than no one, because to deride a product's failings is not the same as belittling a person. Let me add that Google has outsize power and influence, and the idea that we need to be nice to the corporate juggernaut is completely ridiculous.
    - KirinDave 6y ago
      We're not talking about 3rd party opinions here, we're talking about colleagues at the same institution being aggressive and destructive with professional designers.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

It's amazing to me that something as innocuous as, "Professional conduct includes at least an attempt at constructive criticism as opposed to venting" is now a heretical concept on this website.

hyperdimension 6y ago

Doesn't sound like 'venting' to me. Eye strain and inscrutable UI elements sound like concrete complaints. Whether they were phrased diplomatically, I'm not sure, and I'd concede it might be construed as venting depending on the delivery. That being said, assuming it was brought up constructively, I see nothing wrong with the criticism except for the specific designers' refusal to consider it.

KirinDave 6y ago
It would be great if it was brought up constructively. However, this thread appears to be about mocking the concept of psychological safety in the workplace.
- hyperdimension 6y ago
  I personally can't really see any evidence of mocking or any psychologically-unsafe ideas in any of the comments in this thread, so I'm not sure what you're referring to. You can criticize a product (design) without disparaging the person who created it, and I hope we all can take constructive criticism without making it personal. Good UI design shouldn't be strictly for design's sake, so it can be frustrating when something is difficult to use because 'looking good' was prioritized over usability. There's a quote I've read here that I like and think is appropriate: "Accessibility is for everybody."
  - KirinDave 6y ago
    Really, so this quote by ewmiller that I responded to: > I wonder how long my employment would last if I just stopped doing a good job and then said that as a response to any effort by my manager or teammates to criticize my output. was not a direct attack on the notion that professional conduct should include some degree of psychological safety? Or perhaps this post [0] that says: > In regular companies, employees who are bad at their jobs shouldn't feel safe, as they are likely to be fired. I'm a Google SRE. I'm not actually a big fan of the Gmail interface either (and it'd be better if they actually followed material design, imo). But this spirit is fundamentally opposed to people in corporate environments doing good work. Blameless portmortems exist for a reason. Because otherwise, every systemic or personal failure devolves into a scapegoating competition designed to find and remove the most vulnerable member of the team. My criticism is directed specifically at folks suggesting that internally peers at my workplace should harass designers. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25422855 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25422855

artvark11 6y ago

This website, like all other online communities, exists in a bubble and is very far from reality.

IggleSniggle 6y ago

I really don’t think that’s the situation being described here.

KirinDave 6y ago
Obviously I do, and I note several replies here that strongly suggest that's how other people took it as well.

robertlagrant 6y ago

No one mentioned heresy. No one mentioned venting. No one mentioned constructive criticism. Other than that, good job.

KirinDave 6y ago
And yet that's almost certainly what people were describing by mocking the notion of psychological safety in the workplace.

mpalmer 6y ago

Criticism: unacceptable unless totally devoid of emotion Responding to criticism: bring your whole emotional self! guard your mental "safety" with your life!

KirinDave 6y ago
The notion of being passionate without being derisive just isn't an option, I guess?
- mpalmer 6y ago
  Derision makes an unmistakable point. Is nothing worthy of derision? I say nothing rather than no one, because to deride a product's failings is not the same as belittling a person. Let me add that Google has outsize power and influence, and the idea that we need to be nice to the corporate juggernaut is completely ridiculous.
  - KirinDave 6y ago
    We're not talking about 3rd party opinions here, we're talking about colleagues at the same institution being aggressive and destructive with professional designers.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]