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I would like to hear too. But I think I know. Most people when they hear an opinion that they dislike (possibly because its challenging or worse, true) would

I would like to hear too. But I think I know. Most people when they hear an opinion that they dislike (possibly because its challenging or worse, true) would rather that opinion disappeared. I think I am downvoted and flagged because I am prepared to voice my personal opinion that has a basis that I am prepared to defend. I am even prepared to change my opinion if I'm corrected! (Shock horror!!) Most people do not want to engage with that - they would rather say that I am undertaking hate speech. So they would actually rather take a minor act of hate against me (even though I have not taken an act against them) - to quash or silence my opinion - than consider an alternative. Consensus is everything, even in a discussion about philosophy! Its sad, but it does tell you much about the world we live in. That people are highly educated to think according to what their authorities tell them - they do not/cannot discern things for themselves. It used to be a popular thing to say 'I don't agree with you, but I will fight for your right to say what you like'. Those days are long gone. Now, its I don't like what you're saying, you're challenging me and as that causes me psychological harm you are inflict hate speech on me. And that I feel threatened, rightly or not, means I am empowered to try to hurt they person I perceive to be threatening me.. Worst to me, is that HN facilitates teeny, tiny acts of violence against me. I can only post a reply once every hour or so at the moment because of downvotes and being flagged. Perhaps that surprises you? Sure, youtube, hn, facebook, etc are private platforms and they can do what they like, but where exactly is the free speech? The effect of the measures these platforms take, is that some thoughts are not allowed - to most, I am committing thoughtcrime and deserve to not have a voice. Its amazing. TLDR - people are a bunch of babies and can't co-exist with opinions that differ to their own. They feel threatened because their worldview is a stack of cards - a small gust or comment could bring it all crashing down. PS - this is a great video from Larken Rose that touches on some of the points I raised, from a different angle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoPRLeXEzE0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoPRLeXEzE0

contingencies 6y ago
To make the same points but get less of a harsh response, maybe try improving your comments by talking in the third person. In short, don't take things personally.
- feralimal 6y ago
  Why? I am a person, and I am making my personal observations. I am happy to hear other perspectives, wisdom, understanding. I'm not that interested in people not engaging with the ideas presented, as the form is difficult. This is sort of my point - that individuals shouldn't write themselves out of the picture.
  - contingencies 6y ago
    I agree in principle. Unfortunately, the audience's brain does not work with logic, it works with emotion.
    - feralimal 6y ago
      Yes. Everyone is so used to being manipulated, and, it seems, without the ability to work things personally, according to their principles. (Do people even know what principles are? Is it whatever is expedient or are there lines that cannot be crossed?) They actually prefer sugar-coated bullshit to honest responses. They do not use logic, it is all emotional responding. Their ears or eyes cannot take honesty, and they actually feel psychologically assaulted by honestly stated propositions. For myself, I intentionally don't play that game. I don't seek to manipulate or sell ideas to others. I want people to engage with the ideas or not. And I'm fine either way. But I get slammed in this thread and others, not because I may be wrong (and I may be) but just because they don't like the simple, unadorned, probably true, message. If this is where we are at on hackernews, in a thread about philosophy, it speaks volumes about how much trouble we are in as a group, and how we will not be getting out of it anytime soon. The only solution they see is to close down voices like mine.
      - contingencies 6y ago
        Amen brother. Try voicing a balanced perspective on China some time...
        feralimal 6y ago
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
I think I know, too, and I differ from you. I think the post people are asking about got downvoted because you are saying thinks like "Discomfitingly, 'the world' or 'society' is really just an idea in an individual's mind - these are just ideas that don't exist independently of individuals." And you're just stating it like it's true, with no justification. More, you're saying "Discomfitingly", like this "truth" is obviously true but we don't want to hear it because we don't like it. If nothing else, that violates the site guideline of the principle of charity. But I think it's deeper than that. I suspect that you maybe actually think that - that you're actually, obviously right, and anyone who disagrees with you is deliberately blind. That kind of attitude draws downvotes any time it escapes into your words. In particular, the parent post to this one. I'm surprised that it isn't downvoted. In fact, I did downvote it, purely for the "you're a bunch of whining crybabies with your heads in the sand because you downvoted me" that runs all through it. And: > Worst to me, is that HN facilitates teeny, tiny acts of violence against me. If you think downvotes (or being rate limited) are violence, you need to separate your identity from your words.

contingencies 6y ago

To make the same points but get less of a harsh response, maybe try improving your comments by talking in the third person. In short, don't take things personally.

feralimal 6y ago
Why? I am a person, and I am making my personal observations. I am happy to hear other perspectives, wisdom, understanding. I'm not that interested in people not engaging with the ideas presented, as the form is difficult. This is sort of my point - that individuals shouldn't write themselves out of the picture.
- contingencies 6y ago
  I agree in principle. Unfortunately, the audience's brain does not work with logic, it works with emotion.
  - feralimal 6y ago
    Yes. Everyone is so used to being manipulated, and, it seems, without the ability to work things personally, according to their principles. (Do people even know what principles are? Is it whatever is expedient or are there lines that cannot be crossed?) They actually prefer sugar-coated bullshit to honest responses. They do not use logic, it is all emotional responding. Their ears or eyes cannot take honesty, and they actually feel psychologically assaulted by honestly stated propositions. For myself, I intentionally don't play that game. I don't seek to manipulate or sell ideas to others. I want people to engage with the ideas or not. And I'm fine either way. But I get slammed in this thread and others, not because I may be wrong (and I may be) but just because they don't like the simple, unadorned, probably true, message. If this is where we are at on hackernews, in a thread about philosophy, it speaks volumes about how much trouble we are in as a group, and how we will not be getting out of it anytime soon. The only solution they see is to close down voices like mine.
    - contingencies 6y ago
      Amen brother. Try voicing a balanced perspective on China some time...
      - feralimal 6y ago

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

I think I know, too, and I differ from you. I think the post people are asking about got downvoted because you are saying thinks like "Discomfitingly, 'the world' or 'society' is really just an idea in an individual's mind - these are just ideas that don't exist independently of individuals." And you're just stating it like it's true, with no justification. More, you're saying "Discomfitingly", like this "truth" is obviously true but we don't want to hear it because we don't like it. If nothing else, that violates the site guideline of the principle of charity. But I think it's deeper than that. I suspect that you maybe actually think that - that you're actually, obviously right, and anyone who disagrees with you is deliberately blind. That kind of attitude draws downvotes any time it escapes into your words. In particular, the parent post to this one. I'm surprised that it isn't downvoted. In fact, I did downvote it, purely for the "you're a bunch of whining crybabies with your heads in the sand because you downvoted me" that runs all through it. And: > Worst to me, is that HN facilitates teeny, tiny acts of violence against me. If you think downvotes (or being rate limited) are violence, you need to separate your identity from your words.