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I stopped reading at Try to recall a time back when the Internet didn't exist... Where things like cars and phones functioned on their own in a much more reliab

I stopped reading at Try to recall a time back when the Internet didn't exist... Where things like cars and phones functioned on their own in a much more reliable manner. I grew up in the 80s and have owned several cars from that era. They were significantly less reliable than cars of today. Carburetors were still present (though being phased out) and there were always vacuum hoses that, when they leaked, caused your car to run like crap. Also, phones: Cellphones were extremely expensive and unreliable. Landlines were extremely unreliable at reaching other humans because as often as not, the recipient wasn't home. Also, I remember all kinds of problems with landline wiring leading to noisy connections. Also, unless you were calling a close neighbor, you paid high per-minute charges. It's really hard to find something that was better in the pre-internet era. Cars and phones aren't it.

ohazi 6y ago
The internet didn't fix these things, fuel injection, electronic ignition, and digital signal processing / denser silicon integration did.
- stickfigure 6y ago
  Irrespective of why, cars and phones did not function in a more reliable manner back then. The statement is false.
  - denimnerd42 6y ago
    While it's true that cars are way more reliable nowadays. There are still engineer tradeoffs being made against reliability. Lightweight (fuel efficient) oils are being used, gas tank emissions capture (a system of rubber hoses and solenoids which fail easily), EGR systems, etc all are a detriment to reliability even if they have other positive uses. Today's cars could be far more reliable if that was a bigger design goal.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > Irrespective of why, cars and phones did not function in a more reliable manner back then. The statement is false. You're missing the point, and misinterpreting that statement to mean something far broader than it actually says. The article is about unnecessary internet dependency, not about the mechanical reliability of cars, and it's a derail to make it about that. Also, you're interpreting "a time back when the Internet didn't exist" as the 80s. For most people, the internet didn't exist as late as 1995, and I've driven some pretty reliable cars from that era.
  - mywittyname 6y ago
    They could be fixed using low-tech tools though. Something you're overlooking with your concept of "reliability" is that cars produced before 1980 can be fixed using pretty basic tool. It's conceivable that a car from that era could continue to work well into the 2100s. Because most of what can break on can be remanufactured by a reasonably-skilled machinist. Yeah, cars need to be fixed much less often, and they are substantially less fickle vis-a-vis temperature and operating conditions. But the moment the software to repair newer cars is gone, so too goes our ability to easily fix them. This isn't some far-flung dystopian idea either. It's totally possible that the hardware & software used to repair today's cars is difficult or impossible to come by in 30 years. Some of this stuff is five- and six-figure investments. Maybe stuff for GM or Honda vehicles will be accessible, but what about smaller companies like Mazda or Subaru?
    - CountSessine 6y ago
      "Easily fix" is relative though. It was never a majority of car owners that fixed their own cars. I would never have maintained a thousand-dollar toolbox to fix and maintain my car - not then and not now. I'm just not mechanically inclined. For us, there's no difference - we need to take the car in to be serviced either way. The complexification of automobile engineering has disenfranchised a small minority of car owners. But for the rest of us, we just don't need to bring the car in for servicing as much. It's a huge win for the majority.
      - mywittyname 6y ago
        Having a machine that can operate for 30 years with minimal or no maintenance is a type of reliability. Having a machine that can operate for 200+ years with refurbishment is type of reliability. There are pros and cons to each. The former is good so long as your country continues to grow, remains wealthy & educated, and retains the ability to constantly produce better replacements. Not every country has that luxury. The VW Type 2 (what Americans call the "VW Bus") remained in production for the Brazilian market until 2013. That's a poor country and cars are expensive, so the ability to have a vehicle last a lifetime is very important. The Type 2 is something that can be repaired by almost any machine shop with basic fabrication tools. You'll see this a lot in developing countries. Where "new" automobiles would be recognized as a 1980s or 1990s model by those living in developed countries. Manufactures keep them going because the tooling is cheap and easy to keep going. Those 80/90s cars are dead reliable too. Once the spare parts for an American 2020 Honda Civic are exhausted, it's unlikely that new parts can be fabricated. That's fine, so long as there's a 2050 Honda Civic or similar to available replace it, and that such a vehicle can still be afforded. > I would never have maintained a thousand-dollar toolbox to fix and maintain my car You might be surprised by how much work you can do on a 90s-era Japanese car with a 14mm wrench and a screwdriver.
  - maya24 6y ago
    Your argument is a strawman. Car and phone or bad examples to prove your point because car reliability improved because of factors unrelated to the internet, and phone reliability improved because a better reliability of satellites and computer networks. Better examples are things like watches or desktop applications which seem to work fine before they were connected to the internet.
- pas 6y ago
  Most cars are still not Internet connected. And most Internet-enabled cars still run perfectly fine without access to the Internet.
  - mywittyname 6y ago
    Depending on your definition of "internet connected," I'd disagree with your first point. Most new cars come equipped with the hardware for a data-enabled cellular connection and many have been for years. While it's not a feature you necessarily see or know about, it's there. Presumably, the ones that are used by a service like OnStar are constantly polling in the background to get status updates for the account the vehicle is associated with. But yes, to my knowledge, most (all?) operate fine without a cell signal.
    - sliken 6y ago
      I have heard of various ride share services stranding folks in the middle of nowhere because of lack of signal. Not heard a single story of an internet connected car not having basic functionality work without internet.
      - pas 6y ago
        There was a story about a rental car stopping when it crossed a border, because the rental package was domestic use only.
styfle 6y ago
Video games that didn’t need software updates :)
- samtheprogram 6y ago
  Software updates were necessary to bring about internet play without rampant hacking and cheating, and also can provide general fixes to you giving you better value over time, so I’d have to disagree. If you don’t want to play online, you really don’t need software updates anyway.
- gambiting 6y ago
  Yes they absolutely did, they just couldn't get them. Games still shipped buggy, you just had to get used to it, tough. I work with people who were in the games industry in late 90s and the idea that games shipped without bugs is just funny to them.
  - nalekberov 6y ago
    i have bought some nintendo games a year or two ago, some of them received 0 update, still operate as a charm, without any (at least noticeable) bug.
    - ASalazarMX 6y ago
      Switch or retro? Retro was specially hard because once you shipped the cartridges/CDs, the only way to get a revised game was to buy it twice. Still, Nintendo does a pretty good job of avoiding most critical bugs before release even on the Switch.
    - jjk166 6y ago
      Survivor bias: the games people fondly remember and want to go back and play decades later are generally the ones with few if any problems. The buggy crap got purchased by an unlucky few and then was quickly abandoned and forgotten. It's also why classic music, books, movies, etc are great - decades of pruning leaving a short list of best-ofs.
boznz 6y ago
Most audio gear was built to last then, my sound system, speakers and amplifier is from the 80's and still sounds so sweet. The only other notable mention was my Nokia 2110 which I had for from 1996 until 2001 and was bulletproof. (but alas not waterproof)
- SirLuxuryYacht 6y ago
  I use my Kenwood kr-3130, which was given as a gift to my mother in the 70s, every single day. Still truckin'
goodside 6y ago
I think you're overlooking the "on their own" part. The OP isn't lamenting that things are less reliable in general, just that they aren't reliably capable of working offline or on a local network. Phones are maybe an odd example, but it's somewhat true: Traditional phone systems let you make local calls even if long-distance lines fail, or within a building without leaking data externally. Very few people would ever need (or expect) newer voice/video chat systems to be usable in this way, and they largely aren't.
- CountSessine 6y ago
  I don't think I've ever heard a fast-busy signal from my cell phone, even once. But it happened lots with landlines when too many people were making local telephone calls. Circuit switched networks kind of suck in a lot of ways. I don't think I would say traditional phone systems were as reliable as modern telephone and data systems.
  - Lammy 6y ago
    They sure sounded a lot better though.
    - SllX 6y ago
      Not with VoLTE and FaceTime Audio around now. Inter-carrier calls can still suck, but I now have noise canceling headphones which enables me to get a much more intelligent signal out of the mouth of the other caller than I could with just the call speaker held up to my ear. There’s a lot that still sucks, but I don’t miss landlines the slightest bit. Scheduled do not disturb is a godsend next to trying to remember to turn the ringer on the landline in the hallway off at night.
    - falcolas 6y ago
      Lower latency too. It's crazy how much of a difference low latency really makes.
      - NickM 6y ago
nalekberov 6y ago
Then big brothers came along, built centralized systems, you bought devices you have zero clue how they work. With your own money you let them collectively manipulate you. I believe this is what the author tried to explain. Internet and technological advancement is not evil per se, too much power in a very tiny group is going to be problematic.
mehrzad 6y ago
You're right that cars are more reliable today but I follow a lot of mechanics on YouTube (Car Wizard, Kilmer, etc) who say that cars were easier to work on back then. These days (at least in the luxury segment) there are a lot of electronic components that can only be repaired by the OEM. We are also in a strange transitional period with the addition of auto start-stop, hybrid engines, etc that also complicate the car.
- wnevets 6y ago
  > You're right that cars are more reliable today even that is changing according to youtubers like Kilmer. IIRC he has lambasted his favorite car maker Toyota for having a lower quality today than years past.
- boznz 6y ago
  New cars are based on black boxes that need to be coded to work together so if they break it is generally the authorised repair shop or the scrapyard.. So sad :-(
jellicle 6y ago
Vehicle engines are better made today but now we are introducing new points of failure intentionally. It is as if there is a certain quantity of failure that must be present. In fact a vehicle produced just prior to "everything connected to the internet and the manufacturer can turn it off any time if they don't like how you're using it" probably represents the peak of reliability and now we are going somewhat downhill. The NEXT Google Outage will involve 32 million cars refusing to run because they can't log in to your Google Account.
mcguire 6y ago
So you missed the other half of that example? "Now consider current times when your thermostat becomes completely unresponsive in the middle of winter because a vital network goes down. Imagine you're not able to operate your car during a crisis because networks are down?" Something, something, "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. ... Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."
- stickfigure 6y ago
  That statement is also false. I have a Nest thermostat. It works fine without the network. I have a modern car. It works fine without the internet. Several of my friends have Teslas. They work fine offgrid. It's just nonsense. Stop defending it.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    Wasn't there recently a story of a Lamborghini which wouldn't start because it didn't have a cell signal (it was in an underground garage)? Some sensor had been tripped, which made the car require network validation before it would start back up. And don't Nest thermostats occasionally have an issue where they default back to somewhere in the 60° range due to a server connectivity issue? https://support.google.com/googlenest/thread/20510237?hl=en https://support.google.com/googlenest/thread/20510237?hl=en Doesn't seem like nonsense. Other fun internet connected car reads: https://www.wcpo.com/money/consumer/dont-waste-your-money/woman-locked-inside-her-bmw-am-i-gonna-die https://www.wcpo.com/money/consumer/dont-waste-your-money/wo... https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/306338-phone-app-rental-car-stranded-california-boondocks https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/306338-phone-app-rental-...
    - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
      Old thermostats died from time to time, even when they weren't very old. Same with cars. They just had different problems than the modern ones.
FpUser 6y ago
I do not have 80s experience but starting from 1994-1996 (do not remember exactly) I do not recall any major problems with any of my cars. There was one exception when the transmission broke (I could still drive to repair shop) but from what I see this kind of shit can happen now just as likely.
Dirlewanger 6y ago
>It's really hard to find something that was better in the pre-internet era. Big ticket home items like fridges, washer/dryers, TVs. They're all planned to shit the bed just after their warranty wears out so that companies can squeeze out extra money from them. Nothing is made with pride anymore. There's many facets as to why this is, but as a civilization I don't think we're ever going to be able to go back to the way "the way things were"
MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
Why do I need cellular data now to use google maps driving gps system when I didn't a year ago? It's not that we don't need the internet, it's arbitrarily requiring the internet for apps when they worked without it before.

ohazi 6y ago

The internet didn't fix these things, fuel injection, electronic ignition, and digital signal processing / denser silicon integration did.

stickfigure 6y ago
Irrespective of why, cars and phones did not function in a more reliable manner back then. The statement is false.
- denimnerd42 6y ago
  While it's true that cars are way more reliable nowadays. There are still engineer tradeoffs being made against reliability. Lightweight (fuel efficient) oils are being used, gas tank emissions capture (a system of rubber hoses and solenoids which fail easily), EGR systems, etc all are a detriment to reliability even if they have other positive uses. Today's cars could be far more reliable if that was a bigger design goal.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > Irrespective of why, cars and phones did not function in a more reliable manner back then. The statement is false. You're missing the point, and misinterpreting that statement to mean something far broader than it actually says. The article is about unnecessary internet dependency, not about the mechanical reliability of cars, and it's a derail to make it about that. Also, you're interpreting "a time back when the Internet didn't exist" as the 80s. For most people, the internet didn't exist as late as 1995, and I've driven some pretty reliable cars from that era.
- mywittyname 6y ago
  They could be fixed using low-tech tools though. Something you're overlooking with your concept of "reliability" is that cars produced before 1980 can be fixed using pretty basic tool. It's conceivable that a car from that era could continue to work well into the 2100s. Because most of what can break on can be remanufactured by a reasonably-skilled machinist. Yeah, cars need to be fixed much less often, and they are substantially less fickle vis-a-vis temperature and operating conditions. But the moment the software to repair newer cars is gone, so too goes our ability to easily fix them. This isn't some far-flung dystopian idea either. It's totally possible that the hardware & software used to repair today's cars is difficult or impossible to come by in 30 years. Some of this stuff is five- and six-figure investments. Maybe stuff for GM or Honda vehicles will be accessible, but what about smaller companies like Mazda or Subaru?
  - CountSessine 6y ago
    "Easily fix" is relative though. It was never a majority of car owners that fixed their own cars. I would never have maintained a thousand-dollar toolbox to fix and maintain my car - not then and not now. I'm just not mechanically inclined. For us, there's no difference - we need to take the car in to be serviced either way. The complexification of automobile engineering has disenfranchised a small minority of car owners. But for the rest of us, we just don't need to bring the car in for servicing as much. It's a huge win for the majority.
    - mywittyname 6y ago
      Having a machine that can operate for 30 years with minimal or no maintenance is a type of reliability. Having a machine that can operate for 200+ years with refurbishment is type of reliability. There are pros and cons to each. The former is good so long as your country continues to grow, remains wealthy & educated, and retains the ability to constantly produce better replacements. Not every country has that luxury. The VW Type 2 (what Americans call the "VW Bus") remained in production for the Brazilian market until 2013. That's a poor country and cars are expensive, so the ability to have a vehicle last a lifetime is very important. The Type 2 is something that can be repaired by almost any machine shop with basic fabrication tools. You'll see this a lot in developing countries. Where "new" automobiles would be recognized as a 1980s or 1990s model by those living in developed countries. Manufactures keep them going because the tooling is cheap and easy to keep going. Those 80/90s cars are dead reliable too. Once the spare parts for an American 2020 Honda Civic are exhausted, it's unlikely that new parts can be fabricated. That's fine, so long as there's a 2050 Honda Civic or similar to available replace it, and that such a vehicle can still be afforded. > I would never have maintained a thousand-dollar toolbox to fix and maintain my car You might be surprised by how much work you can do on a 90s-era Japanese car with a 14mm wrench and a screwdriver.
- maya24 6y ago
  Your argument is a strawman. Car and phone or bad examples to prove your point because car reliability improved because of factors unrelated to the internet, and phone reliability improved because a better reliability of satellites and computer networks. Better examples are things like watches or desktop applications which seem to work fine before they were connected to the internet.
pas 6y ago
Most cars are still not Internet connected. And most Internet-enabled cars still run perfectly fine without access to the Internet.
- mywittyname 6y ago
  Depending on your definition of "internet connected," I'd disagree with your first point. Most new cars come equipped with the hardware for a data-enabled cellular connection and many have been for years. While it's not a feature you necessarily see or know about, it's there. Presumably, the ones that are used by a service like OnStar are constantly polling in the background to get status updates for the account the vehicle is associated with. But yes, to my knowledge, most (all?) operate fine without a cell signal.
  - sliken 6y ago
    I have heard of various ride share services stranding folks in the middle of nowhere because of lack of signal. Not heard a single story of an internet connected car not having basic functionality work without internet.
    - pas 6y ago
      There was a story about a rental car stopping when it crossed a border, because the rental package was domestic use only.

styfle 6y ago

Video games that didn’t need software updates :)

samtheprogram 6y ago
Software updates were necessary to bring about internet play without rampant hacking and cheating, and also can provide general fixes to you giving you better value over time, so I’d have to disagree. If you don’t want to play online, you really don’t need software updates anyway.
gambiting 6y ago
Yes they absolutely did, they just couldn't get them. Games still shipped buggy, you just had to get used to it, tough. I work with people who were in the games industry in late 90s and the idea that games shipped without bugs is just funny to them.
- nalekberov 6y ago
  i have bought some nintendo games a year or two ago, some of them received 0 update, still operate as a charm, without any (at least noticeable) bug.
  - ASalazarMX 6y ago
    Switch or retro? Retro was specially hard because once you shipped the cartridges/CDs, the only way to get a revised game was to buy it twice. Still, Nintendo does a pretty good job of avoiding most critical bugs before release even on the Switch.
  - jjk166 6y ago
    Survivor bias: the games people fondly remember and want to go back and play decades later are generally the ones with few if any problems. The buggy crap got purchased by an unlucky few and then was quickly abandoned and forgotten. It's also why classic music, books, movies, etc are great - decades of pruning leaving a short list of best-ofs.

boznz 6y ago

Most audio gear was built to last then, my sound system, speakers and amplifier is from the 80's and still sounds so sweet. The only other notable mention was my Nokia 2110 which I had for from 1996 until 2001 and was bulletproof. (but alas not waterproof)

SirLuxuryYacht 6y ago
I use my Kenwood kr-3130, which was given as a gift to my mother in the 70s, every single day. Still truckin'

goodside 6y ago

I think you're overlooking the "on their own" part. The OP isn't lamenting that things are less reliable in general, just that they aren't reliably capable of working offline or on a local network. Phones are maybe an odd example, but it's somewhat true: Traditional phone systems let you make local calls even if long-distance lines fail, or within a building without leaking data externally. Very few people would ever need (or expect) newer voice/video chat systems to be usable in this way, and they largely aren't.

CountSessine 6y ago
I don't think I've ever heard a fast-busy signal from my cell phone, even once. But it happened lots with landlines when too many people were making local telephone calls. Circuit switched networks kind of suck in a lot of ways. I don't think I would say traditional phone systems were as reliable as modern telephone and data systems.
- Lammy 6y ago
  They sure sounded a lot better though.
  - SllX 6y ago
    Not with VoLTE and FaceTime Audio around now. Inter-carrier calls can still suck, but I now have noise canceling headphones which enables me to get a much more intelligent signal out of the mouth of the other caller than I could with just the call speaker held up to my ear. There’s a lot that still sucks, but I don’t miss landlines the slightest bit. Scheduled do not disturb is a godsend next to trying to remember to turn the ringer on the landline in the hallway off at night.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    Lower latency too. It's crazy how much of a difference low latency really makes.
    - NickM 6y ago

nalekberov 6y ago

Then big brothers came along, built centralized systems, you bought devices you have zero clue how they work. With your own money you let them collectively manipulate you. I believe this is what the author tried to explain. Internet and technological advancement is not evil per se, too much power in a very tiny group is going to be problematic.

mehrzad 6y ago

You're right that cars are more reliable today but I follow a lot of mechanics on YouTube (Car Wizard, Kilmer, etc) who say that cars were easier to work on back then. These days (at least in the luxury segment) there are a lot of electronic components that can only be repaired by the OEM. We are also in a strange transitional period with the addition of auto start-stop, hybrid engines, etc that also complicate the car.

wnevets 6y ago
> You're right that cars are more reliable today even that is changing according to youtubers like Kilmer. IIRC he has lambasted his favorite car maker Toyota for having a lower quality today than years past.
boznz 6y ago
New cars are based on black boxes that need to be coded to work together so if they break it is generally the authorised repair shop or the scrapyard.. So sad :-(

jellicle 6y ago

Vehicle engines are better made today but now we are introducing new points of failure intentionally. It is as if there is a certain quantity of failure that must be present. In fact a vehicle produced just prior to "everything connected to the internet and the manufacturer can turn it off any time if they don't like how you're using it" probably represents the peak of reliability and now we are going somewhat downhill. The NEXT Google Outage will involve 32 million cars refusing to run because they can't log in to your Google Account.

mcguire 6y ago

So you missed the other half of that example? "Now consider current times when your thermostat becomes completely unresponsive in the middle of winter because a vital network goes down. Imagine you're not able to operate your car during a crisis because networks are down?" Something, something, "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. ... Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

stickfigure 6y ago
That statement is also false. I have a Nest thermostat. It works fine without the network. I have a modern car. It works fine without the internet. Several of my friends have Teslas. They work fine offgrid. It's just nonsense. Stop defending it.
- falcolas 6y ago
  Wasn't there recently a story of a Lamborghini which wouldn't start because it didn't have a cell signal (it was in an underground garage)? Some sensor had been tripped, which made the car require network validation before it would start back up. And don't Nest thermostats occasionally have an issue where they default back to somewhere in the 60° range due to a server connectivity issue? https://support.google.com/googlenest/thread/20510237?hl=en https://support.google.com/googlenest/thread/20510237?hl=en Doesn't seem like nonsense. Other fun internet connected car reads: https://www.wcpo.com/money/consumer/dont-waste-your-money/woman-locked-inside-her-bmw-am-i-gonna-die https://www.wcpo.com/money/consumer/dont-waste-your-money/wo... https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/306338-phone-app-rental-car-stranded-california-boondocks https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/306338-phone-app-rental-...
  - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
    Old thermostats died from time to time, even when they weren't very old. Same with cars. They just had different problems than the modern ones.

FpUser 6y ago

I do not have 80s experience but starting from 1994-1996 (do not remember exactly) I do not recall any major problems with any of my cars. There was one exception when the transmission broke (I could still drive to repair shop) but from what I see this kind of shit can happen now just as likely.

Dirlewanger 6y ago

>It's really hard to find something that was better in the pre-internet era. Big ticket home items like fridges, washer/dryers, TVs. They're all planned to shit the bed just after their warranty wears out so that companies can squeeze out extra money from them. Nothing is made with pride anymore. There's many facets as to why this is, but as a civilization I don't think we're ever going to be able to go back to the way "the way things were"

MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago

Why do I need cellular data now to use google maps driving gps system when I didn't a year ago? It's not that we don't need the internet, it's arbitrarily requiring the internet for apps when they worked without it before.