5 ms·

Watching the media say one thing about Hydroxychloroquine and the medical community saying the opposite - at the same time - was really eye-opening for me. As

by eloff 6y ago

Watching the media say one thing about Hydroxychloroquine and the medical community saying the opposite - at the same time - was really eye-opening for me. As was watching how many people blindly accepted the media's take on it. Every time I brought it up on HN I got down-voted, even when providing citations. It's made me wonder what other things I'm unaware of where the biases in the media lead to large numbers of people believing falsehoods.

maxerickson 6y ago
Fox news and similar cheered the magic fixes, what other media was doing that? Or are you going in the direction of a few discredited doctors presenting evidence that it works?
- eloff 6y ago
  I think you can count yourself among the fooled. Have a look at what medical professionals say about HCQ. It's not possible to say that was only the position of a few discredited doctors. There's quite a lot of evidence to show that if given early it can reduce the severity of the disease.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    No, there's no good evidence of any benefit, after lots of good studies on it. One of us is fooled though!
    - eloff 6y ago
      I went digging for citations to prove my point. However, since I last looked at it back in May there have been a lot of studies that have since completed and they seem to overwhelmingly point to it having no benefit. Unfortunately many of the studies don't test it correctly in my opinion, as they often test HCQ alone or with Azithromycin. There were some early indications it works as a zinc ionophore to transport zinc into the cells and it's the zinc that has the effect. I personally supplement with zinc and quercetin for this precise reason - I will continue to do so. I'm not entirely convinced that's wrong, but I will certainly concede that the data now supports that HCQ by itself doesn't seem to have a clinically significant effect on mortality or severity of illness with Covid-19. I won't exonerate the media though, because they were quick with their early claims that it doesn't work at a time when the evidence was stronger in the other direction (in my opinion) or ambiguous at best. One need look no further for support of that than the sheer amount of studies that were triggered into HCQ for Coivd-19 treatment (over 150 registered clinical trials!) That would have been silly if there was no good reason at the time to think it might be effective.
  - me_me_me 6y ago
    this is a dead horse being beaten to its second death. Blind studies disproved every claim of HCQ being useful in any way in treating covid patients. HCQ was a hoax that wasted valuable time to disprove it. Its a fact now. Stop making shit up. Move on.
    - eloff 6y ago
      You must have missed my reply above. But when everyone was starting these studies back in March, it was not because it was a "hoax" it was because it showed initial promise - first in China and then outside of China. So let's not be revisionist with history either. There's a reason it sparked so many studies and it had nothing to do with Trump's antics.
      - porpoise 6y ago
        > was because it showed initial promise - first in China and then outside of China This is incorrect. The idea of using HCQ didn't come from China but from a French doctor, nor did China ever promote using HCQ as a treatment. See the timeline for HCQ in connection with Covid [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine#Timeline https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine#Timeline
        eloff 6y ago
        You're going to need a better source than wikipedia if you want to convince me of that. Does hydroxychloroquine combat COVID-19? A timeline of evidence [1]: On February 17, 2020, the State Council of China held a news conference indicating that chloroquine (CQ) had demonstrated efficacy in treating COVID-19 associated pneumonia in multicenter, non-randomized, clinical trials.2,3 This prompted multiple clinical trials in China. [1] https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(20)30607-1/pdf https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(20)30607-1/pdf
        me_me_me 6y ago
        It is such a wonder drug that trump wasn't treated with it when he contracted covid. I don't really care nothing that anyone will say is going to change your mind anyhow. An actual study and not a political statements from CPP breadcrumbs (that are used control its population amidst highest rates in their pandemic): https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638 Dude you are trying to discredit cited wiki and you brought a non-statement single page that aggregates Chinese sources from beginning of a year. here is a quote from that pdf: >To date, despite enough rationale to justify investigation into the efficacy and safety of HCQ inCOVID-19 (Table II),14,15the evidence regarding itseffect remains limited. HCQ has not yet received United States Food and Drug Administration approval for use against COVID-19, and further trials are needed to establish guidelines. If emerging data from ongoing trials establishes the efficacy of HCQ for prophylaxis and treatment of COVID-19, triage will be important to ensure that existing supplies are used appropriately The conclusion of your 'evidence' is a call to do trials.

by eloff 6y ago

maxerickson 6y ago

Fox news and similar cheered the magic fixes, what other media was doing that? Or are you going in the direction of a few discredited doctors presenting evidence that it works?

eloff 6y ago
I think you can count yourself among the fooled. Have a look at what medical professionals say about HCQ. It's not possible to say that was only the position of a few discredited doctors. There's quite a lot of evidence to show that if given early it can reduce the severity of the disease.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  No, there's no good evidence of any benefit, after lots of good studies on it. One of us is fooled though!
  - eloff 6y ago
    I went digging for citations to prove my point. However, since I last looked at it back in May there have been a lot of studies that have since completed and they seem to overwhelmingly point to it having no benefit. Unfortunately many of the studies don't test it correctly in my opinion, as they often test HCQ alone or with Azithromycin. There were some early indications it works as a zinc ionophore to transport zinc into the cells and it's the zinc that has the effect. I personally supplement with zinc and quercetin for this precise reason - I will continue to do so. I'm not entirely convinced that's wrong, but I will certainly concede that the data now supports that HCQ by itself doesn't seem to have a clinically significant effect on mortality or severity of illness with Covid-19. I won't exonerate the media though, because they were quick with their early claims that it doesn't work at a time when the evidence was stronger in the other direction (in my opinion) or ambiguous at best. One need look no further for support of that than the sheer amount of studies that were triggered into HCQ for Coivd-19 treatment (over 150 registered clinical trials!) That would have been silly if there was no good reason at the time to think it might be effective.
- me_me_me 6y ago
  this is a dead horse being beaten to its second death. Blind studies disproved every claim of HCQ being useful in any way in treating covid patients. HCQ was a hoax that wasted valuable time to disprove it. Its a fact now. Stop making shit up. Move on.
  - eloff 6y ago
    You must have missed my reply above. But when everyone was starting these studies back in March, it was not because it was a "hoax" it was because it showed initial promise - first in China and then outside of China. So let's not be revisionist with history either. There's a reason it sparked so many studies and it had nothing to do with Trump's antics.
    - porpoise 6y ago
      > was because it showed initial promise - first in China and then outside of China This is incorrect. The idea of using HCQ didn't come from China but from a French doctor, nor did China ever promote using HCQ as a treatment. See the timeline for HCQ in connection with Covid [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine#Timeline https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine#Timeline
      - eloff 6y ago
        You're going to need a better source than wikipedia if you want to convince me of that. Does hydroxychloroquine combat COVID-19? A timeline of evidence [1]: On February 17, 2020, the State Council of China held a news conference indicating that chloroquine (CQ) had demonstrated efficacy in treating COVID-19 associated pneumonia in multicenter, non-randomized, clinical trials.2,3 This prompted multiple clinical trials in China. [1] https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(20)30607-1/pdf https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(20)30607-1/pdf
        me_me_me 6y ago
        It is such a wonder drug that trump wasn't treated with it when he contracted covid. I don't really care nothing that anyone will say is going to change your mind anyhow. An actual study and not a political statements from CPP breadcrumbs (that are used control its population amidst highest rates in their pandemic): https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638 Dude you are trying to discredit cited wiki and you brought a non-statement single page that aggregates Chinese sources from beginning of a year. here is a quote from that pdf: >To date, despite enough rationale to justify investigation into the efficacy and safety of HCQ inCOVID-19 (Table II),14,15the evidence regarding itseffect remains limited. HCQ has not yet received United States Food and Drug Administration approval for use against COVID-19, and further trials are needed to establish guidelines. If emerging data from ongoing trials establishes the efficacy of HCQ for prophylaxis and treatment of COVID-19, triage will be important to ensure that existing supplies are used appropriately The conclusion of your 'evidence' is a call to do trials.