6 ms·

I wonder if my desire to grind and or min/max in video games during my teenage years was a proxy for honing skills. Perhaps it's a developmental stage where you

I wonder if my desire to grind and or min/max in video games during my teenage years was a proxy for honing skills. Perhaps it's a developmental stage where you actually enjoy the repetition because you're supposed to be developing a skills and trade-craft. But now that I'm older I have little to no interest in such pursuits.

bigfudge 6y ago
Surely the point is that this developmental ability to persist is wasted on FPS? You could have learnt a musical instrument or developed some other accomplishment that lasts a lifetime. I.e. the real problem is the opportunity cost
- dimitrios1 6y ago
  Speak for yourself pal, I can still 1deag with the best of them.
  - renjimen 6y ago
    Honestly, there is very little else as satisfying as a couple of Juan Deags in a crunch round of a CS match. I've spent time learning other, more respectable RL hobbies, but there's that deep sense of satisfaction they fail to capture.
    - rowanG077 6y ago
      Only things comperable is an orgasm to be honest. But the satisfaction of Juan deags persist for longer.
- toast0 6y ago
  I mean, clearly FPS is a waste. Civilization and SFII is where it's at. SMB is ok too. That said, learning a musical instrument does not last a lifetime if you don't keep playing it. The point of learning skills early in life is not necessarily that the skill is useful, it's that you've learned how to learn skills. Which hopefully will be used throughout your life.
  - Jeff_Brown 6y ago
    If what you learn are songs you'll forget them without practice. But if you learn music theory, composition, improvisation, you'll never forget. at least that's how I explain my own experience. I routinely go for years without playing most of the instruments I know. Give me a week and I'll be better at any one of them than I've ever been.
    - dd36 6y ago
      Ok GPT-3.
- dfxm12 6y ago
  Surely the point is that this developmental ability to persist is wasted on FPS? Who is to say? FPS games can teach you about your physical ability, practice and teamwork as much as playing football or playing in a band. The physical skills are different, sure, but the planning, teamwork and execution are all very similar (and similar to developing an app with a team). Any of these things could also, well, not teach you much of anything. But is that a function of the game or the player? The article suggests maybe it's a function of genuinely liking what you're doing vs simply wanting to do it (maybe because of an addiction). I.e. the real problem is the opportunity cost The problem with viewing through the lens of the opportunity cost is that it requires some hindsight to be completely evaluated. I played competitive football for 8 years. I wanted to, but I never went pro. You can work hard, put in the effort and still have nothing good to show for it. Today, I feel like I could have better spent that time, because it ate up a lot of it.
- curryst 6y ago
  > You could have learnt a musical instrument or developed some other accomplishment that lasts a lifetime. These "classical" hobbies are vastly over-valued in my opinion. I spent almost a decade learning to play violin, and while the appreciation for music has been valuable, the actual skill of being able to play the violin has been largely useless. I also quit when I was no longer forced to play for school, and probably can't even read the sheet music anymore. It's by no means a life long skill like riding a bike. Phrased another way, I don't see much that validates being able to play a musical instrument as more valuable than being good at a particular genre of video games. Music has existed for far longer, so it has a certain level of prestige as a long-standing part of our culture. Music can be shared with others, although Twitch seems to imply there are a substantial number of people interested in watching other people play video games. There are various studies about the tangential benefits of music, there are likewise for video games. I don't know that one comes out clearly ahead. Video games are more likely to give you real world skills. As more and more of the world moves online, skills that you pick up trying to get games to work or trying to make them run faster can be valuable. Online etiquette is another thing you tend to learn (hopefully, instead of just being toxic). Learning an instrument is also not without pain. When I played, probably 75% of the time I was playing I wasn't actually doing anything enjoyable, I was working on committing a piece to memory, or practicing a piece, or doing exercises to work on my finger strength or flexibility. I don't feel like learning an instrument is less "grindy".
  - psychomugs 6y ago
    As a counterdote, I both played video games and played music (band, church groups, self-studying) for significant amounts of time in my youth. I still play music today and my only regret is not spending more time on it earlier, whereas I regret spending so much time on video games. The collaboration and shareability of music is unparalleled; I can connect with people and actually create something that is an expression of myself and my collaborators, and even people who've never picked up an instrument can appreciate pleasant-sounding music. With video games, you really need to know the mechanics of a specific game to appreciate someone else's performance, and very rarely do the results of a video game manifest itself in the real world apart from the consequential skills you may pick up. The problem of quitting music once it's no longer compulsory is endemic and I think more rooted with pedagogy than music itself as a medium. I staved it off because I was largely self-taught for theory and the instruments I currently play (piano, guitar), whereas people who were forced into lessons or only did it to fill an elective slot in school quit once they were able to. I've gone months-long stints without dedicated practice, but to me it's closer to an unforgettable skill than riding a bike is (because I don't know how to ride a bike).
- p1necone 6y ago
  I'm not sure that getting really good at e.g. Counterstrike is somehow inherently "worse" than getting really good at e.g. playing the piano.
  - giantDinosaur 6y ago
    One of them might get you laid, the other won't ? Less flippantly, one of them requires consistent improvement or you'll quit - there's no zombie-state when learning piano where you'll be content with sitting at the same level for over a thousand hours. This zombie-like steady-state scenario is very easy with video games; relatively minor skill improvements over literally thousands of hours for the majority of people. No feedback to quit and try something else, unlike the piano where if you have no elegance after a few years you'll be very disillusioned. This disillusionment is a good thing, a necessary part of the learning process which indicates you either need to change your approach or find something else entirely. Video games, in my experience, break this feedback loop: they demand no fundamental progression.
    - leetcrew 6y ago
      > One of them might get you laid, the other won't ? as a guitar player, I'm very sorry to inform you that this is not the case. you get a small bump in attractiveness once you master the chords to wonderwall, but after that you don't really make any progress unless your band becomes popular. as a cs player, I can't say I agree with the rest of your comment either. counterstrike is a very harsh and unforgiving game. plateauing at the same skill level feels very bad. you will get rekt by twelve year olds and they will mock you mercilessly. I would also contest that musical instruments create any inherent drive for improvement. plenty of people just learn the basic barre chords and a couple major/minor scale shapes and go on to happily jam with friends for thousands of hours.
      - giantDinosaur 6y ago
        I suppose I should clarify, since you're right about reaching a certain level and being content with it (which is fine, naturally.) What I mean is that 2000 hours of my life can simply vanish into a video game black hole, absent any other life events. Why? It's possible to play Counterstrike (or whatever) for 14 hours in the day. For a week. Or two. or 52. I've never in my life met a person who can enter that kind of state for 14 hours when playing an instrument, where the ease by which it consumes your life is just so breathtaking. The only two activities I've found which have this addictive ease are generic web browsing (e.g. reddit) and assorted video games - and my life has definitely been degraded as a result.
- golergka 6y ago
  > Surely the point is that this developmental ability to persist is wasted on FPS? It's anecdotal, of course, but I always notice vast diffference in spatial conceptualization between people who have played first-person videogames set in complex 3d environments and those who have not. Me and my gamer friends could easily draw you an aproximate map of a location after being there once, correctly oriented by cardinal directions.
  - _carbyau_ 6y ago
    Anecdote to support: With our first car that has sat nav, I instantly adjusted to it as a "minimap" in the peripheral vision. Though of course, I wonder if I am more likely to have an accident because I glance at it without thinking. Mind you, I may also have internalised the art of "knowing when to look at the minimap" IE when do I need to pay attention to what.
  - alisonkisk 6y ago
    Are you sure that's the direction causality runs?
- Baeocystin 6y ago
  Playing video games makes for better surgeons. No joke, and the improvement is substantial. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-surgery-games-idUSN2J30397820070219 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-surgery-games-idUSN2J3039...
- rhencke 6y ago
  Learning to learn is a critical skill to hone in and of itself, regardless of if what you're learning is 'wasted'.
- arvinsim 6y ago
  There is nothing inherently better between playing video games or a musical instrument in your free time if both helps you relax. As usual, it's society that determines which one is a more "acceptable" hobby.
wincy 6y ago
Grinding skills in games turned into running through shot simulations to get the best DPS in world of Warcraft, which turned into me learning to write code. The same obsession is there, just instead of being “the best on the server” I get a paycheck.

bigfudge 6y ago

Surely the point is that this developmental ability to persist is wasted on FPS? You could have learnt a musical instrument or developed some other accomplishment that lasts a lifetime. I.e. the real problem is the opportunity cost

dimitrios1 6y ago
Speak for yourself pal, I can still 1deag with the best of them.
- renjimen 6y ago
  Honestly, there is very little else as satisfying as a couple of Juan Deags in a crunch round of a CS match. I've spent time learning other, more respectable RL hobbies, but there's that deep sense of satisfaction they fail to capture.
  - rowanG077 6y ago
    Only things comperable is an orgasm to be honest. But the satisfaction of Juan deags persist for longer.
toast0 6y ago
I mean, clearly FPS is a waste. Civilization and SFII is where it's at. SMB is ok too. That said, learning a musical instrument does not last a lifetime if you don't keep playing it. The point of learning skills early in life is not necessarily that the skill is useful, it's that you've learned how to learn skills. Which hopefully will be used throughout your life.
- Jeff_Brown 6y ago
  If what you learn are songs you'll forget them without practice. But if you learn music theory, composition, improvisation, you'll never forget. at least that's how I explain my own experience. I routinely go for years without playing most of the instruments I know. Give me a week and I'll be better at any one of them than I've ever been.
  - dd36 6y ago
    Ok GPT-3.
dfxm12 6y ago
Surely the point is that this developmental ability to persist is wasted on FPS? Who is to say? FPS games can teach you about your physical ability, practice and teamwork as much as playing football or playing in a band. The physical skills are different, sure, but the planning, teamwork and execution are all very similar (and similar to developing an app with a team). Any of these things could also, well, not teach you much of anything. But is that a function of the game or the player? The article suggests maybe it's a function of genuinely liking what you're doing vs simply wanting to do it (maybe because of an addiction). I.e. the real problem is the opportunity cost The problem with viewing through the lens of the opportunity cost is that it requires some hindsight to be completely evaluated. I played competitive football for 8 years. I wanted to, but I never went pro. You can work hard, put in the effort and still have nothing good to show for it. Today, I feel like I could have better spent that time, because it ate up a lot of it.
curryst 6y ago
> You could have learnt a musical instrument or developed some other accomplishment that lasts a lifetime. These "classical" hobbies are vastly over-valued in my opinion. I spent almost a decade learning to play violin, and while the appreciation for music has been valuable, the actual skill of being able to play the violin has been largely useless. I also quit when I was no longer forced to play for school, and probably can't even read the sheet music anymore. It's by no means a life long skill like riding a bike. Phrased another way, I don't see much that validates being able to play a musical instrument as more valuable than being good at a particular genre of video games. Music has existed for far longer, so it has a certain level of prestige as a long-standing part of our culture. Music can be shared with others, although Twitch seems to imply there are a substantial number of people interested in watching other people play video games. There are various studies about the tangential benefits of music, there are likewise for video games. I don't know that one comes out clearly ahead. Video games are more likely to give you real world skills. As more and more of the world moves online, skills that you pick up trying to get games to work or trying to make them run faster can be valuable. Online etiquette is another thing you tend to learn (hopefully, instead of just being toxic). Learning an instrument is also not without pain. When I played, probably 75% of the time I was playing I wasn't actually doing anything enjoyable, I was working on committing a piece to memory, or practicing a piece, or doing exercises to work on my finger strength or flexibility. I don't feel like learning an instrument is less "grindy".
- psychomugs 6y ago
  As a counterdote, I both played video games and played music (band, church groups, self-studying) for significant amounts of time in my youth. I still play music today and my only regret is not spending more time on it earlier, whereas I regret spending so much time on video games. The collaboration and shareability of music is unparalleled; I can connect with people and actually create something that is an expression of myself and my collaborators, and even people who've never picked up an instrument can appreciate pleasant-sounding music. With video games, you really need to know the mechanics of a specific game to appreciate someone else's performance, and very rarely do the results of a video game manifest itself in the real world apart from the consequential skills you may pick up. The problem of quitting music once it's no longer compulsory is endemic and I think more rooted with pedagogy than music itself as a medium. I staved it off because I was largely self-taught for theory and the instruments I currently play (piano, guitar), whereas people who were forced into lessons or only did it to fill an elective slot in school quit once they were able to. I've gone months-long stints without dedicated practice, but to me it's closer to an unforgettable skill than riding a bike is (because I don't know how to ride a bike).
p1necone 6y ago
I'm not sure that getting really good at e.g. Counterstrike is somehow inherently "worse" than getting really good at e.g. playing the piano.
- giantDinosaur 6y ago
  One of them might get you laid, the other won't ? Less flippantly, one of them requires consistent improvement or you'll quit - there's no zombie-state when learning piano where you'll be content with sitting at the same level for over a thousand hours. This zombie-like steady-state scenario is very easy with video games; relatively minor skill improvements over literally thousands of hours for the majority of people. No feedback to quit and try something else, unlike the piano where if you have no elegance after a few years you'll be very disillusioned. This disillusionment is a good thing, a necessary part of the learning process which indicates you either need to change your approach or find something else entirely. Video games, in my experience, break this feedback loop: they demand no fundamental progression.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    > One of them might get you laid, the other won't ? as a guitar player, I'm very sorry to inform you that this is not the case. you get a small bump in attractiveness once you master the chords to wonderwall, but after that you don't really make any progress unless your band becomes popular. as a cs player, I can't say I agree with the rest of your comment either. counterstrike is a very harsh and unforgiving game. plateauing at the same skill level feels very bad. you will get rekt by twelve year olds and they will mock you mercilessly. I would also contest that musical instruments create any inherent drive for improvement. plenty of people just learn the basic barre chords and a couple major/minor scale shapes and go on to happily jam with friends for thousands of hours.
    - giantDinosaur 6y ago
      I suppose I should clarify, since you're right about reaching a certain level and being content with it (which is fine, naturally.) What I mean is that 2000 hours of my life can simply vanish into a video game black hole, absent any other life events. Why? It's possible to play Counterstrike (or whatever) for 14 hours in the day. For a week. Or two. or 52. I've never in my life met a person who can enter that kind of state for 14 hours when playing an instrument, where the ease by which it consumes your life is just so breathtaking. The only two activities I've found which have this addictive ease are generic web browsing (e.g. reddit) and assorted video games - and my life has definitely been degraded as a result.
golergka 6y ago
> Surely the point is that this developmental ability to persist is wasted on FPS? It's anecdotal, of course, but I always notice vast diffference in spatial conceptualization between people who have played first-person videogames set in complex 3d environments and those who have not. Me and my gamer friends could easily draw you an aproximate map of a location after being there once, correctly oriented by cardinal directions.
- _carbyau_ 6y ago
  Anecdote to support: With our first car that has sat nav, I instantly adjusted to it as a "minimap" in the peripheral vision. Though of course, I wonder if I am more likely to have an accident because I glance at it without thinking. Mind you, I may also have internalised the art of "knowing when to look at the minimap" IE when do I need to pay attention to what.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  Are you sure that's the direction causality runs?
Baeocystin 6y ago
Playing video games makes for better surgeons. No joke, and the improvement is substantial. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-surgery-games-idUSN2J30397820070219 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-surgery-games-idUSN2J3039...
rhencke 6y ago
Learning to learn is a critical skill to hone in and of itself, regardless of if what you're learning is 'wasted'.
arvinsim 6y ago
There is nothing inherently better between playing video games or a musical instrument in your free time if both helps you relax. As usual, it's society that determines which one is a more "acceptable" hobby.

wincy 6y ago

Grinding skills in games turned into running through shot simulations to get the best DPS in world of Warcraft, which turned into me learning to write code. The same obsession is there, just instead of being “the best on the server” I get a paycheck.