4 ms·

This is interesting considering issues with CSEM far and away plague social media websites significantly worse than porn websites. Credit card companies are sup

by jchw 6y ago

This is interesting considering issues with CSEM far and away plague social media websites significantly worse than porn websites. Credit card companies are super eager to drop porn and sex related vendors, in the United States. The stated reasoning is that this kind of stuff leads to a lot of chargebacks/disputes/fraud, but I suspect this is not the full story, and this news doesn’t do much to quell that concern. I’m not saying there is no problem whatsoever and nothing should be done. However, Pornhub has come under increasing scrutiny despite an underwhelming amount of evidence that it has a serious endemic problem. Such illegal material could easily end up on any website if it is mistaken to be legal, which unfortunately does happen; it’s not very easy to tell if someone is biologically 18, you are likely underestimating how much the human body can vary from person to person if you think that it’s easy. But, while it’s not a good thing, the bigger picture is that Pornhub is largely not being used to intentionally distribute illegal material, whereas social media and chat programs actually are. Sometimes surprisingly close to out in the open. Something feels disconcerting here. It’s not that I care personally about this particular action; in truth I have almost only ever seen meme videos on Pornhub. But it feels like it could be a precursor to another push to censor pornography and the internet. Somehow, when eroticism is involved, people either cheer on or simply are ambivalent about censorship. I think this is irrational. The edges of free speech are the only parts that really matter that much. This action here doesn’t really hinder anyone’s expression directly, but it certainly seems like it will have chilling effects that justify future actions that will. Of course I hope this is mostly nothing and it ends up being purely positive. However, I at least implore some thought here as this didn’t just occur in a vacuum.

root_axis 6y ago
> This is interesting considering issues with CSEM far and away plague social media websites significantly worse than porn websites What's your evidence for this claim? I don't know if it's true but it certainly isn't what I'd expect.
- jchw 6y ago
  The article actually covers it: > Pornhub's announcement also cites a report by third-party Internet Watch Foundation, which found 118 instances of child sexual abuse material on Pornhub in the last three years, and notes that in the same period, Facebook's own transparency report found 84 million instances of child sexual abuse material on the social media platform. There was also such an issue with it cropping up on Tumblr and not being removed in short enough order that Tumblr was briefly removed from the iOS app store.[1] [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46275138 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46275138
  - root_axis 6y ago
    Yeah I read that, but I don't think that single statistic necessarily tells us a whole lot, the extreme disparity also makes me think there might be something unexpected going on underneath the tabulation of those numbers. Intuitively, I'd expect user upload porn sites to have a lot more illegal content since its much easier for it to blend in there compared to most other places on the internet, the problem is greatly magnified at scale since distinguishing between legal pornographic imagery and illegal pornographic imagery is not trivial problem.
    - jchw 6y ago
      Consider: - Most popular social media websites allow adult content in some forms. - It is no easier to tell illicit content from legal content on one site versus another. - There is likely not just far more content, but far more adult content on Twitter and Facebook than dedicated porn websites. - Sites like Twitter and Facebook better facilitate private conversation (presumably.) I don’t think you can make money on Pornhub without verification, so there’s probably not a money incentive to intentionally post illicit content. In fact I’m not entirely sure why you would at all, but my best guess is in hopes of trading with others. In that case, social media is actually perfect: draw people in with carefully constructed fronts, do dealings in private groups and try to fly as much under the radar as possible. It’s hard to say and probably silly to speculate but I just don’t see the point of using a pornography website for this.
      - 6y ago
- pas 6y ago
  Related, sites ranked by reporting functionality: https://i.cbc.ca/1.5822691.1606800089!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_1180/child-porn.jpg https://i.cbc.ca/1.5822691.1606800089!/fileImage/httpImage/i...
nullc 6y ago
> but I suspect this is not the full story, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point#Details https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point#Details
- lvs 6y ago
  I'm surprised that real estate and construction are not on this list.
  - nullc 6y ago
    Presumably they're harder to shut down without due process via vague leaning on anti-money-laundering rules with payment processors. Everything on that list depends on a relatively high volume of relatively low value banking transactions.
RpFLCL 6y ago
>Something feels disconcerting here. It’s not that I care personally about this particular action; in truth I have almost only ever seen meme videos on Pornhub. But it feels like it could be a precursor to another push to censor pornography and the internet. I would go even farther to worry that this might begin to push the Overton window towards demonizing any content posted online that isn't "verified" by a real identity. MindGeek (the company behind PornHub) was also backing the UK's law requiring an ID to watch porn online. If users get comfortable with the idea of having even their porn tied to a real ID, wouldn't they become comfortable with less "private" content also tied to their legal identity? I don't want to read this headline from the future: "Pornhub requires an ID, should Reddit, Twitter, and 4chan do the same?" And I also don't want to read the future headline: "Pornhub's ID database hacked, thousands of models names and addresses exposed" Anonymity is important (imo) and it would be a shame to see people use porn as the excuse to curtail it. Surely it's possible to remove illegal content without stripping away privacy and anonymity.

by jchw 6y ago

root_axis 6y ago

> This is interesting considering issues with CSEM far and away plague social media websites significantly worse than porn websites What's your evidence for this claim? I don't know if it's true but it certainly isn't what I'd expect.

jchw 6y ago
The article actually covers it: > Pornhub's announcement also cites a report by third-party Internet Watch Foundation, which found 118 instances of child sexual abuse material on Pornhub in the last three years, and notes that in the same period, Facebook's own transparency report found 84 million instances of child sexual abuse material on the social media platform. There was also such an issue with it cropping up on Tumblr and not being removed in short enough order that Tumblr was briefly removed from the iOS app store.[1] [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46275138 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46275138
- root_axis 6y ago
  Yeah I read that, but I don't think that single statistic necessarily tells us a whole lot, the extreme disparity also makes me think there might be something unexpected going on underneath the tabulation of those numbers. Intuitively, I'd expect user upload porn sites to have a lot more illegal content since its much easier for it to blend in there compared to most other places on the internet, the problem is greatly magnified at scale since distinguishing between legal pornographic imagery and illegal pornographic imagery is not trivial problem.
  - jchw 6y ago
    Consider: - Most popular social media websites allow adult content in some forms. - It is no easier to tell illicit content from legal content on one site versus another. - There is likely not just far more content, but far more adult content on Twitter and Facebook than dedicated porn websites. - Sites like Twitter and Facebook better facilitate private conversation (presumably.) I don’t think you can make money on Pornhub without verification, so there’s probably not a money incentive to intentionally post illicit content. In fact I’m not entirely sure why you would at all, but my best guess is in hopes of trading with others. In that case, social media is actually perfect: draw people in with carefully constructed fronts, do dealings in private groups and try to fly as much under the radar as possible. It’s hard to say and probably silly to speculate but I just don’t see the point of using a pornography website for this.
    - 6y ago
pas 6y ago
Related, sites ranked by reporting functionality: https://i.cbc.ca/1.5822691.1606800089!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_1180/child-porn.jpg https://i.cbc.ca/1.5822691.1606800089!/fileImage/httpImage/i...

nullc 6y ago

> but I suspect this is not the full story, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point#Details https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point#Details

lvs 6y ago
I'm surprised that real estate and construction are not on this list.
- nullc 6y ago
  Presumably they're harder to shut down without due process via vague leaning on anti-money-laundering rules with payment processors. Everything on that list depends on a relatively high volume of relatively low value banking transactions.

RpFLCL 6y ago

>Something feels disconcerting here. It’s not that I care personally about this particular action; in truth I have almost only ever seen meme videos on Pornhub. But it feels like it could be a precursor to another push to censor pornography and the internet. I would go even farther to worry that this might begin to push the Overton window towards demonizing any content posted online that isn't "verified" by a real identity. MindGeek (the company behind PornHub) was also backing the UK's law requiring an ID to watch porn online. If users get comfortable with the idea of having even their porn tied to a real ID, wouldn't they become comfortable with less "private" content also tied to their legal identity? I don't want to read this headline from the future: "Pornhub requires an ID, should Reddit, Twitter, and 4chan do the same?" And I also don't want to read the future headline: "Pornhub's ID database hacked, thousands of models names and addresses exposed" Anonymity is important (imo) and it would be a shame to see people use porn as the excuse to curtail it. Surely it's possible to remove illegal content without stripping away privacy and anonymity.