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It's easy to turn a blind eye to the benefits we've gotten from philosophy, it sounds like a bunch of truisms and we think surely we would've just figured that

by xamuel 6y ago

It's easy to turn a blind eye to the benefits we've gotten from philosophy, it sounds like a bunch of truisms and we think surely we would've just figured that easy stuff out ourselves without the philosophers. But suppose you were plopped down in ancient times before Aristotle invented formal logic. Would you have invented it yourself because it's so obvious and a no-brainer and you're so practical? Well, if you think so, then why did it take so long for mankind to do so? Aristotle is practically yesterday, in geological terms.

bonoboTP 6y ago
But people did lots of really smart stuff before Aristotle. Also, the Maya and Aztecs didn't have Aristotle's logic but built an empire and had calendars etc. Sure they were not as advanced at the "meeting time", but who knows where they would have arrived after a few hundred or a few thousand more years. How much were the high brow elites piggybacking and surfing on top of discoveries and chaotic societal processes that they rather described than created themselves?
- thelastwave 6y ago
  That's Aristotle all over, no originality of thought, but just riding the wave of his zeitgeist.
  - bonoboTP 6y ago
    Were the Greeks that original in some definite way that later stuff is derivative but they aren't? Is the divergence of the vector field of knowledge positive at the Greeks? Do they pump out more than they ingested from their prior generations? Indeed a lot of the heavy lifting is done by later generations in picking out the good stuff from everything, and we know "90% of everything is crap". Aristotle was right and influential because we the later generations pick him of all his contemporaries because we evaluate his ideas to be good. And we discard a lot of bullshit where he was wrong and made up things without any basis. Is my analysis here original? Surely not. We all stand on the shoulders of giants etc. But the point is precisely this, that we propagate the best ideas forward, in a discourse, and this is an active process and requires our judgment. Sure this idea itself is also not my radically novel insight. But I wouldn't count on seeing absolutely novel insight in all HN comments.
    - xamuel 6y ago
      I do sometimes wonder to what extent Socrates'/Plato's/Aristotle's legacy benefited from Aristotle's connection to Alexander the Great. Had Alexander not been so famous, would those three have vanished into obscurity? The dual question of course is whether Alexander would've been so great without Aristotle's mentorship!
    - adamsea 6y ago
      > Were the Greeks that original in some definite way that later stuff is derivative but they aren't? I believe some folks are interested in if Indian thought and philosophy, or other Asian philosophies / schools of thought had any influence on Ancient Greek thought, as there was communication, trade, Alexander the Great conquering stuff, etc. But I believe it's an open question and probably one difficult to answer. Schopenhaur, Nietzsche, and others, were aware of and admirers of Buddhism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Western_philosophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Western_philosoph... IMHO there's generally more cross-pollination, in multiple directions, than is generally realized or credited.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

by xamuel 6y ago

bonoboTP 6y ago

But people did lots of really smart stuff before Aristotle. Also, the Maya and Aztecs didn't have Aristotle's logic but built an empire and had calendars etc. Sure they were not as advanced at the "meeting time", but who knows where they would have arrived after a few hundred or a few thousand more years. How much were the high brow elites piggybacking and surfing on top of discoveries and chaotic societal processes that they rather described than created themselves?

thelastwave 6y ago
That's Aristotle all over, no originality of thought, but just riding the wave of his zeitgeist.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  Were the Greeks that original in some definite way that later stuff is derivative but they aren't? Is the divergence of the vector field of knowledge positive at the Greeks? Do they pump out more than they ingested from their prior generations? Indeed a lot of the heavy lifting is done by later generations in picking out the good stuff from everything, and we know "90% of everything is crap". Aristotle was right and influential because we the later generations pick him of all his contemporaries because we evaluate his ideas to be good. And we discard a lot of bullshit where he was wrong and made up things without any basis. Is my analysis here original? Surely not. We all stand on the shoulders of giants etc. But the point is precisely this, that we propagate the best ideas forward, in a discourse, and this is an active process and requires our judgment. Sure this idea itself is also not my radically novel insight. But I wouldn't count on seeing absolutely novel insight in all HN comments.
  - xamuel 6y ago
    I do sometimes wonder to what extent Socrates'/Plato's/Aristotle's legacy benefited from Aristotle's connection to Alexander the Great. Had Alexander not been so famous, would those three have vanished into obscurity? The dual question of course is whether Alexander would've been so great without Aristotle's mentorship!
  - adamsea 6y ago
    > Were the Greeks that original in some definite way that later stuff is derivative but they aren't? I believe some folks are interested in if Indian thought and philosophy, or other Asian philosophies / schools of thought had any influence on Ancient Greek thought, as there was communication, trade, Alexander the Great conquering stuff, etc. But I believe it's an open question and probably one difficult to answer. Schopenhaur, Nietzsche, and others, were aware of and admirers of Buddhism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Western_philosophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Western_philosoph... IMHO there's generally more cross-pollination, in multiple directions, than is generally realized or credited.
deleted 6y ago
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