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This approach is one of my biggest annoyances because it's not the same. You're asking for them to give you something but they're not getting anything in return

This approach is one of my biggest annoyances because it's not the same. You're asking for them to give you something but they're not getting anything in return. When people use Facebook/Google etc. they get a service that they end up valuing very highly in return. That common argument of "Give me your phone and PIN" is so pointless because people wouldn't even give that stuff to Facebook if it didn't give them anything back. We've got to find a better set of arguments that we can use to convince people. I'm very strongly into privacy rights and I'm not convinced by this argument. Why would someone who doesn't care be convinced?

dontchooseanick 6y ago
- Post pictures naked ? - You close the door of the toilets. You do have something to hide (we all know what you're doing. you're hiding anyway) "I don't need privacy because my actions are questionable, but because your judgment is" (think dictatures, wrong guys at the top of the decision pyramid, 2nd world war ..)
Tokelin 6y ago
Just change the hypothetical into: "Would you give me your home address and keys so I can drop off a newspaper on your coffee table each morning?" Yes, it's a bit long, but it takes into account your concern of giving data and not receiving anything in return. And Facebook/Insta/Social media in general is very similar to having a newspaper available at your coffee table each day.
- vntok 6y ago
  > "Would you give me your home address and keys so I can drop off a newspaper on your coffee table each morning?" If we're entering a valid contract under the justice system of our country of residency, why not? Similar services already abound, in particular around people who contract to visit and attend to older citizens.
  - Tokelin 6y ago
    This is a valid argument, which leads me to the thought that the laws need to be updated. I personally wouldn't be okay with my own premise. I have a person coming over to clean, but I am always home and I can check if I am worried about something.
    - vntok 6y ago
      If that's not too intrusive a question, I would be curious to know about your fears regarding such situation? Many people would consider this a benign thing - after all residential cleaning services is a multi-dozen billion market worldwide, growing at 5+% YoY, and a non-trivial part of that necessarily involves letting cleaners clean without owners' supervision. Then again I'm asking as a European citizen living in a country with a comprehensive legal system, a functioning police force, cheap insurance policies, so on so forth. Certainly that ecosystem plays a role in our inner fears.
- scatters 6y ago
  Given that plenty of people give their home address and keys to a cleaner (domestic maid service), I really don't think that argument is going to get you anywhere.
  - rolph 6y ago
    i wonder how many of those people use nannycams?
  - Tokelin 6y ago
    I also have a cleaner coming to clean, but I am always home. I would say no to my own question, if other people would say yes, then we can discuss how it's "different" with tech giants.
- dexterlemmer 6y ago
  > "Would you give me your home address and keys so I can drop off a newspaper on your coffee table each morning?" ... Oh. And BTW. I'll be making some copies of your keys to give to a bunch of others interested in placing adds on your coffee table (or so they claim). I'll also go through all your drawers to see if I can't find any other keys/access cards/... to gain access to your office or your colleages' offices, friends' or family's homes, etc. just so I can provide them with the same adds "service" as I intend to provide you. Of course I don't remind you of any of this. Nor do I tell your colleagues, friends, family, etc. After all. What you don't know will aid me and what they don't know will aid me. ;-)
  - Tokelin 6y ago
    That is much closer to the digital reality, thanks for expanding on the idea like this.
sroussey 6y ago
If they don’t care, ask for their password.
mackrevinack 6y ago
yea its a shame its used so much. i even seen it being used by someone on TED talk :/ im not going to get into any of the better arguments right now but one thing i like to ask when people say they have nothing to hide is "what kind of things are people looking for?" I think its good to get a handle on what the person knows first before you start throwing out counter arguments. in a lot of cases people don't even know whether they have something to hide or not and are just repeating what they have heard others saying

dontchooseanick 6y ago

- Post pictures naked ? - You close the door of the toilets. You do have something to hide (we all know what you're doing. you're hiding anyway) "I don't need privacy because my actions are questionable, but because your judgment is" (think dictatures, wrong guys at the top of the decision pyramid, 2nd world war ..)

Tokelin 6y ago

Just change the hypothetical into: "Would you give me your home address and keys so I can drop off a newspaper on your coffee table each morning?" Yes, it's a bit long, but it takes into account your concern of giving data and not receiving anything in return. And Facebook/Insta/Social media in general is very similar to having a newspaper available at your coffee table each day.

vntok 6y ago
> "Would you give me your home address and keys so I can drop off a newspaper on your coffee table each morning?" If we're entering a valid contract under the justice system of our country of residency, why not? Similar services already abound, in particular around people who contract to visit and attend to older citizens.
- Tokelin 6y ago
  This is a valid argument, which leads me to the thought that the laws need to be updated. I personally wouldn't be okay with my own premise. I have a person coming over to clean, but I am always home and I can check if I am worried about something.
  - vntok 6y ago
    If that's not too intrusive a question, I would be curious to know about your fears regarding such situation? Many people would consider this a benign thing - after all residential cleaning services is a multi-dozen billion market worldwide, growing at 5+% YoY, and a non-trivial part of that necessarily involves letting cleaners clean without owners' supervision. Then again I'm asking as a European citizen living in a country with a comprehensive legal system, a functioning police force, cheap insurance policies, so on so forth. Certainly that ecosystem plays a role in our inner fears.
scatters 6y ago
Given that plenty of people give their home address and keys to a cleaner (domestic maid service), I really don't think that argument is going to get you anywhere.
- rolph 6y ago
  i wonder how many of those people use nannycams?
- Tokelin 6y ago
  I also have a cleaner coming to clean, but I am always home. I would say no to my own question, if other people would say yes, then we can discuss how it's "different" with tech giants.
dexterlemmer 6y ago
> "Would you give me your home address and keys so I can drop off a newspaper on your coffee table each morning?" ... Oh. And BTW. I'll be making some copies of your keys to give to a bunch of others interested in placing adds on your coffee table (or so they claim). I'll also go through all your drawers to see if I can't find any other keys/access cards/... to gain access to your office or your colleages' offices, friends' or family's homes, etc. just so I can provide them with the same adds "service" as I intend to provide you. Of course I don't remind you of any of this. Nor do I tell your colleagues, friends, family, etc. After all. What you don't know will aid me and what they don't know will aid me. ;-)
- Tokelin 6y ago
  That is much closer to the digital reality, thanks for expanding on the idea like this.

sroussey 6y ago

If they don’t care, ask for their password.

mackrevinack 6y ago

yea its a shame its used so much. i even seen it being used by someone on TED talk :/ im not going to get into any of the better arguments right now but one thing i like to ask when people say they have nothing to hide is "what kind of things are people looking for?" I think its good to get a handle on what the person knows first before you start throwing out counter arguments. in a lot of cases people don't even know whether they have something to hide or not and are just repeating what they have heard others saying