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> The theory that free markets are highly effective isn't based on a belief in magic. Well, yes, that capitalism will cause a production craze is even written

by jahaja 6y ago

> The theory that free markets are highly effective isn't based on a belief in magic. Well, yes, that capitalism will cause a production craze is even written in the Communist Manifesto. What "effective" means in practice however is another thing - there's nothing effective about planned obsolescence, great for the current measurement of economic growth though. > The theory is logically sound in the same way the theory of evolution is. Please refer to a single established scientist that agrees with that cocksure statement. > believing in conspiracy theories about a capitalist oligarchy coopting the Economics field There is nothing conspiratorial to question the theories of the current hegemony who have a vested interests to uphold it. The upper classes have come up with theories throughout history to justify their privileges that have no basis in social justice.

CryptoPunk 6y ago
The production craze you deride is what lets people living in brutal poverty elevate their standard of living. Planned obsolescence is not a general property of a market-driven economy. See cars for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY/comments/zbxa6/resurrection_1986_alfa_romeo_spider_does_diy_like/c63d2zp/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY/comments/zbxa6/resurrection_198... 'Capitalism produces planned obsolesence' is another talking point referenced by activists who haven't studied economics and therefore have a simplistic/cynical understanding of it. >Please refer to a single established scientist that agrees with that cocksure statement. Any economic textbook lays out the advantages of the free market, or market freedom, as I've described. That it is generally Pareto Efficient is widely accepted in Economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency#Use_in_public_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency#Use_in_publi... >There is nothing conspiratorial to question the theories of the current hegemony who have a vested interests to uphold it. This very sentence puts forward a theoretical conspiracy.
- jahaja 6y ago
  > Planned obsolescence is not a general property of a market-driven economy. Are you really gonna try to explain one of the most obvious consequence of capitalist profit incentives by some random reddit post along with another dismissive "you don't know economics"? I wrote "single established scientist", not some vague "every book" and a wikipedia one-liner article. > This very sentence puts forward a theoretical conspiracy. It's not a conspiracy where people get together in some room. It's a straight forward structure of incentives.
  - CryptoPunk 6y ago
    It is not obvious at all. There is no evidence at all of a general trend toward planned obsolescence. This is another layman's talking point. The Reddit comment has a link to a chart showing the average life of a car every year, showing how it has increased, and it has plenty of details on how car parts have evolved to be more durable, safer and easier to repair. >>I wrote "single established scientist", not some vague "every book" and a wikipedia one-liner article. You didn't even address what I provided about Pareto Efficiency, which demonstrates the acceptance within the field of Economics of the free market's efficacy more than your quote would have. >>It's not a conspiracy where people get together in some room. Yes it is alleging a conspiracy, and you're claiming Economics in general has been coopted by it. This is no different than anti-vaxxerism.
    - jahaja 6y ago
      > It is not obvious at all. There is no evidence at all of a general trend toward planned obsolescence. This is another layman's talking point. All incentives in capitalism encourages quick cyclic consumption, and corporations spend vast amounts of resources to various forms of obsolescence [0]. This can't just be ignored even if you would like it, because it blatantly shows how wasteful the current system is. > You didn't even address what I provided about Pareto Efficiency "I ignored your questioned and posted something else, now please answer what I posted meanwhile I'll keep ignoring the question". > Yes it is alleging a conspiracy, and you're claiming Economics in general has been coopted by it. This is no different than anti-vaxxerism. A field of study with so close connections to power and wealth must be seen with skepticism. It's like not questioning the upper-classes theories of society of old. There's a lot of examples of theories justifying their privileges. There's also an important distinction to be made. It's true that capitalism/free-market produces alot of stuff. But it's certainly not true that it produces freedom, happiness, and justice for all. The problem is that you will take the former to justify the latter injustices. That's obvious bias. [0] Planned obsolescence: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/15/the-right-to-repair-planned-obsolescence-electronic-waste-mountain https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/15/the-right... https://www.green-alliance.org.uk/resources/A%20circular%20economy%20for%20smart%20devices.pdf https://www.green-alliance.org.uk/resources/A%20circular%20e... https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/mar/23/were-are-all-losers-to-gadget-industry-built-on-planned-obsolescence https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/mar/23... https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20160612-heres-the-truth-about-the-planned-obsolescence-of-tech https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20160612-heres-the-truth-... https://www.consumersinternational.org/news-resources/blog/posts/built-to-fail-is-planned-obsolescence-really-happening/ https://www.consumersinternational.org/news-resources/blog/p... https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/technology/innovation/origin-and-myths-of-planned-obsolescence/ https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/technology/innovation/origin... "Yale University economics professor Judith Chevalier explained to the BBC that companies react to consumer tastes, and that planned obsolescence is not simply a deception by manufacturers, but in certain situations the fault lies with consumers, who do not value a more durable product, but one that possesses the latest technology." (admits to its existence, but just blames it on the consumer instead) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence "An Economic Theory of Planned Obsolescence" https://www.jstor.org/stable/1884176?seq=1 https://www.jstor.org/stable/1884176?seq=1

by jahaja 6y ago

CryptoPunk 6y ago

The production craze you deride is what lets people living in brutal poverty elevate their standard of living. Planned obsolescence is not a general property of a market-driven economy. See cars for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY/comments/zbxa6/resurrection_1986_alfa_romeo_spider_does_diy_like/c63d2zp/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY/comments/zbxa6/resurrection_198... 'Capitalism produces planned obsolesence' is another talking point referenced by activists who haven't studied economics and therefore have a simplistic/cynical understanding of it. >Please refer to a single established scientist that agrees with that cocksure statement. Any economic textbook lays out the advantages of the free market, or market freedom, as I've described. That it is generally Pareto Efficient is widely accepted in Economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency#Use_in_public_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency#Use_in_publi... >There is nothing conspiratorial to question the theories of the current hegemony who have a vested interests to uphold it. This very sentence puts forward a theoretical conspiracy.

jahaja 6y ago
> Planned obsolescence is not a general property of a market-driven economy. Are you really gonna try to explain one of the most obvious consequence of capitalist profit incentives by some random reddit post along with another dismissive "you don't know economics"? I wrote "single established scientist", not some vague "every book" and a wikipedia one-liner article. > This very sentence puts forward a theoretical conspiracy. It's not a conspiracy where people get together in some room. It's a straight forward structure of incentives.
- CryptoPunk 6y ago
  It is not obvious at all. There is no evidence at all of a general trend toward planned obsolescence. This is another layman's talking point. The Reddit comment has a link to a chart showing the average life of a car every year, showing how it has increased, and it has plenty of details on how car parts have evolved to be more durable, safer and easier to repair. >>I wrote "single established scientist", not some vague "every book" and a wikipedia one-liner article. You didn't even address what I provided about Pareto Efficiency, which demonstrates the acceptance within the field of Economics of the free market's efficacy more than your quote would have. >>It's not a conspiracy where people get together in some room. Yes it is alleging a conspiracy, and you're claiming Economics in general has been coopted by it. This is no different than anti-vaxxerism.
  - jahaja 6y ago
    > It is not obvious at all. There is no evidence at all of a general trend toward planned obsolescence. This is another layman's talking point. All incentives in capitalism encourages quick cyclic consumption, and corporations spend vast amounts of resources to various forms of obsolescence [0]. This can't just be ignored even if you would like it, because it blatantly shows how wasteful the current system is. > You didn't even address what I provided about Pareto Efficiency "I ignored your questioned and posted something else, now please answer what I posted meanwhile I'll keep ignoring the question". > Yes it is alleging a conspiracy, and you're claiming Economics in general has been coopted by it. This is no different than anti-vaxxerism. A field of study with so close connections to power and wealth must be seen with skepticism. It's like not questioning the upper-classes theories of society of old. There's a lot of examples of theories justifying their privileges. There's also an important distinction to be made. It's true that capitalism/free-market produces alot of stuff. But it's certainly not true that it produces freedom, happiness, and justice for all. The problem is that you will take the former to justify the latter injustices. That's obvious bias. [0] Planned obsolescence: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/15/the-right-to-repair-planned-obsolescence-electronic-waste-mountain https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/15/the-right... https://www.green-alliance.org.uk/resources/A%20circular%20economy%20for%20smart%20devices.pdf https://www.green-alliance.org.uk/resources/A%20circular%20e... https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/mar/23/were-are-all-losers-to-gadget-industry-built-on-planned-obsolescence https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/mar/23... https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20160612-heres-the-truth-about-the-planned-obsolescence-of-tech https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20160612-heres-the-truth-... https://www.consumersinternational.org/news-resources/blog/posts/built-to-fail-is-planned-obsolescence-really-happening/ https://www.consumersinternational.org/news-resources/blog/p... https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/technology/innovation/origin-and-myths-of-planned-obsolescence/ https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/technology/innovation/origin... "Yale University economics professor Judith Chevalier explained to the BBC that companies react to consumer tastes, and that planned obsolescence is not simply a deception by manufacturers, but in certain situations the fault lies with consumers, who do not value a more durable product, but one that possesses the latest technology." (admits to its existence, but just blames it on the consumer instead) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence "An Economic Theory of Planned Obsolescence" https://www.jstor.org/stable/1884176?seq=1 https://www.jstor.org/stable/1884176?seq=1