4 ms·

China’s Combative Nationalists See a World Turning Their Way

3 points by ishikawa 6y ago

ajsnigrutin 6y ago
Say what you will.... I see and know a bunch of people wanting to move to america, and pretty much noone wanting to move to China. Politics and propaganda aside, following the people movement patters tells alot about individual countries (em- vs im-igration ratio by itself, but even more the ratio of immigrants from 'even shittier' countries and people leaving to 'less shittier' ones).
- ardy42 6y ago
  > Say what you will.... I see and know a bunch of people wanting to move to america, and pretty much noone wanting to move to China. I know Chinese people who immigrated to the US who say they'd probably have made a different decision if they had to do it again, after seeing a person like Donald Trump elected president and the US's shambolic response to COVID. They're not moving back, since they're old enough to have put down roots, but the US has definitely lost some of its shine to them. On a related note, my understanding is having lived and worked in America is no longer seen as a "plus" (for Chinese) when it comes to future employment in China. It used to be, but not anymore. > Politics and propaganda aside, following the people movement patters tells alot about individual countries (em- vs im-igration ratio by itself, but even more the ratio of immigrants from 'even shittier' countries and people leaving to 'less shittier' ones). In regular times, that's a trailing indicator, not a leading indicator. However, right now, that indicator is blind. China's success at containing COVID, coupled with the US's utter failure, could very likely cause that ratio to change in the future.
  - ajsnigrutin 6y ago
    People from china going home is one thing... but there are still people from eg. Netherlands (and other developed european countries... and underdeveloped too, and african, and southern american, and a lot of asian too), who want to move to america (and actively do, especially coders and engineers), while those people moving to china is rare. The chinese autoritarian system, from the great firewall to face recognition, to well... the covid story (hiding covid, hiding numbers, and literally welding doors shut in china, is not atractive to someone from a relatively free country.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > People from china going home is one thing... but there are still people from eg. Netherlands (and other developed european countries... and underdeveloped too, and african, and southern american, and a lot of asian too), who want to move to america (and actively do, especially coders and engineers), while those people moving to china is rare. There has been a fair amount of African immigration to China, for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africans_in_Guangzhou https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africans_in_Guangzhou. Given the actions the PRC has taken to restrict it, the actual demand might be higher than the numbers indicate. China has plenty of Western expats, as well, especially places like HK and Shanghai. But my point still stands. Immigration numbers are a lagging indicator. They tell you about how things were in the past, not necessarily how they are now or how they're going to be in the future. By the time you actually see them change, it will probably be too late to undo damage caused that change. In short, looking at immigration numbers to shore up feelings of national self-confidence is kinda foolish, since it'll just lead you to rest on our laurels. In my view, it's better to look at how perceptions are changing, and try to correct the reasons for those changes. For instance: my friend never thought the US would handle something like COVID so badly, and especially not so much more badly than China. That +1 to China's reputation, and -1 to the US's. Add to that the fact that most of the stuff we have in the US was made in China (and thus available there, too, neutralizing a US advantage), etc. It's not to hard to see that, unless something changes (e.g. a more competent government, more solidarity among the people), it's not inconceivable that the immigration flows might slowly head to parity then reverse.
      - ajsnigrutin 6y ago
        America is handling covid at the same level as most developed countries... yes badly, but still, this is a temporary setback, while chinese system is a permanent one. I was born and lived in a socialist country (still live 'here', but the country does not exist anymore), and 'solidarity' in a socialist sense is something that made people flee to USA in the first place. If you're a good, skilled worker, tradesman, engineer, etc., america is still one of the best countries to live in. If you're incompetent, have mental issues, etc., then you're fucked, and you'd be beter off in a highly developed european country, this I agree.

3 points by ishikawa 6y ago

Say what you will.... I see and know a bunch of people wanting to move to america, and pretty much noone wanting to move to China. Politics and propaganda aside, following the people movement patters tells alot about individual countries (em- vs im-igration ratio by itself, but even more the ratio of immigrants from 'even shittier' countries and people leaving to 'less shittier' ones).

ardy42 6y ago
> Say what you will.... I see and know a bunch of people wanting to move to america, and pretty much noone wanting to move to China. I know Chinese people who immigrated to the US who say they'd probably have made a different decision if they had to do it again, after seeing a person like Donald Trump elected president and the US's shambolic response to COVID. They're not moving back, since they're old enough to have put down roots, but the US has definitely lost some of its shine to them. On a related note, my understanding is having lived and worked in America is no longer seen as a "plus" (for Chinese) when it comes to future employment in China. It used to be, but not anymore. > Politics and propaganda aside, following the people movement patters tells alot about individual countries (em- vs im-igration ratio by itself, but even more the ratio of immigrants from 'even shittier' countries and people leaving to 'less shittier' ones). In regular times, that's a trailing indicator, not a leading indicator. However, right now, that indicator is blind. China's success at containing COVID, coupled with the US's utter failure, could very likely cause that ratio to change in the future.
- ajsnigrutin 6y ago
  People from china going home is one thing... but there are still people from eg. Netherlands (and other developed european countries... and underdeveloped too, and african, and southern american, and a lot of asian too), who want to move to america (and actively do, especially coders and engineers), while those people moving to china is rare. The chinese autoritarian system, from the great firewall to face recognition, to well... the covid story (hiding covid, hiding numbers, and literally welding doors shut in china, is not atractive to someone from a relatively free country.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > People from china going home is one thing... but there are still people from eg. Netherlands (and other developed european countries... and underdeveloped too, and african, and southern american, and a lot of asian too), who want to move to america (and actively do, especially coders and engineers), while those people moving to china is rare. There has been a fair amount of African immigration to China, for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africans_in_Guangzhou https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africans_in_Guangzhou. Given the actions the PRC has taken to restrict it, the actual demand might be higher than the numbers indicate. China has plenty of Western expats, as well, especially places like HK and Shanghai. But my point still stands. Immigration numbers are a lagging indicator. They tell you about how things were in the past, not necessarily how they are now or how they're going to be in the future. By the time you actually see them change, it will probably be too late to undo damage caused that change. In short, looking at immigration numbers to shore up feelings of national self-confidence is kinda foolish, since it'll just lead you to rest on our laurels. In my view, it's better to look at how perceptions are changing, and try to correct the reasons for those changes. For instance: my friend never thought the US would handle something like COVID so badly, and especially not so much more badly than China. That +1 to China's reputation, and -1 to the US's. Add to that the fact that most of the stuff we have in the US was made in China (and thus available there, too, neutralizing a US advantage), etc. It's not to hard to see that, unless something changes (e.g. a more competent government, more solidarity among the people), it's not inconceivable that the immigration flows might slowly head to parity then reverse.
    - ajsnigrutin 6y ago
      America is handling covid at the same level as most developed countries... yes badly, but still, this is a temporary setback, while chinese system is a permanent one. I was born and lived in a socialist country (still live 'here', but the country does not exist anymore), and 'solidarity' in a socialist sense is something that made people flee to USA in the first place. If you're a good, skilled worker, tradesman, engineer, etc., america is still one of the best countries to live in. If you're incompetent, have mental issues, etc., then you're fucked, and you'd be beter off in a highly developed european country, this I agree.