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> but the real soil somehow must add a lot of flavor, even if it's not relevant to produce the fruit, because I really feel a big difference of taste between hy

by pm90 6y ago

> but the real soil somehow must add a lot of flavor, even if it's not relevant to produce the fruit, because I really feel a big difference of taste between hydroponic food and classic farming. Is this a real thing? Interesting! I wonder if, much like food additives, we could figure out what particular nutrients would be required to impart a specific flavor to produce.

hobofan 6y ago
AFAIK the compounds that make up the flavor are mostly known. The problem is more that if you optimize plant growth for weight per time (because weight is what you are payed for) and leave flavor out of the equation, you'll end up with fruit that has a lot of weight with little flavor. If you switch to a growth regimen that gives the plants a bit more time, you will generally get a better flavor, even under hydroponic settings. Given that you can sense a lot of compounds that make up a fruit non-destructively, I'm pretty optimistic that you could optimize for flavor too in a robotic/vertical farming setting.
riffraff 6y ago
AFAIU, the main problem is that hydroponic growers maximize for volume/color not taste. They could use richer nutrients, but decide not to.
DrAwdeOccarim 6y ago
It's likely only genetics that determine taste. Abiotic Soil contents probably have no contribution.
- jeromenerf 6y ago
  Genetics defines a potential not an outcome, so it lets us with defining the methods to leverage this potential. Moreover, our taste is only loosely related to the plant optimum. Some prefer sweetness, acidity, softness, juicyness ... The soil, undersoil and climate have great impact on naturally grown plants. See wine.
  - DrAwdeOccarim 6y ago
    It would be interesting to ask someone to taste-test hydroponic tomatoes vs soil tomatoes. My guess is no one can tell the difference, and in fact hydroponic probably tastes better. So yes, genetics only define a potential in a pedantic definition but those genes only need light, CO2, nitrogen, phosphorus, and trace metals to affect life. As for the wine argument, I really can't tell the difference between two buck chuck and a $250 bottle of wine and I'd venture a guess that neither can most people (ok, maybe two buck chuck is a little too low on the quality pole). As for molecular content, I'm sure the grapes that go into a choice pinot noir would sustain life just as efficiently as the red grapes in my grocery store.
    - jeromenerf 6y ago
      Differences in appreciation of food is multi factorial of course. One can produce crap or greatness given the same material, and another could appreciate it or not given personal preference and culture. Regarding wine, I guess culture plays an important role. Differences between wine grapes grains and table grape grains, is mostly selection and cultural practices. Table grape is grown for volume and freshness, wine grape is grown to be concentrated in sugar and other compounds, with lower yields, higher maturity, etc. Both use lots of pesticides nowadays unfortunately. As for their capability of sustaining life, I don’t know. Grape was used for fasting and purging traditionally :)

by pm90 6y ago

hobofan 6y ago

AFAIK the compounds that make up the flavor are mostly known. The problem is more that if you optimize plant growth for weight per time (because weight is what you are payed for) and leave flavor out of the equation, you'll end up with fruit that has a lot of weight with little flavor. If you switch to a growth regimen that gives the plants a bit more time, you will generally get a better flavor, even under hydroponic settings. Given that you can sense a lot of compounds that make up a fruit non-destructively, I'm pretty optimistic that you could optimize for flavor too in a robotic/vertical farming setting.

riffraff 6y ago

AFAIU, the main problem is that hydroponic growers maximize for volume/color not taste. They could use richer nutrients, but decide not to.

DrAwdeOccarim 6y ago

It's likely only genetics that determine taste. Abiotic Soil contents probably have no contribution.

jeromenerf 6y ago
Genetics defines a potential not an outcome, so it lets us with defining the methods to leverage this potential. Moreover, our taste is only loosely related to the plant optimum. Some prefer sweetness, acidity, softness, juicyness ... The soil, undersoil and climate have great impact on naturally grown plants. See wine.
- DrAwdeOccarim 6y ago
  It would be interesting to ask someone to taste-test hydroponic tomatoes vs soil tomatoes. My guess is no one can tell the difference, and in fact hydroponic probably tastes better. So yes, genetics only define a potential in a pedantic definition but those genes only need light, CO2, nitrogen, phosphorus, and trace metals to affect life. As for the wine argument, I really can't tell the difference between two buck chuck and a $250 bottle of wine and I'd venture a guess that neither can most people (ok, maybe two buck chuck is a little too low on the quality pole). As for molecular content, I'm sure the grapes that go into a choice pinot noir would sustain life just as efficiently as the red grapes in my grocery store.
  - jeromenerf 6y ago
    Differences in appreciation of food is multi factorial of course. One can produce crap or greatness given the same material, and another could appreciate it or not given personal preference and culture. Regarding wine, I guess culture plays an important role. Differences between wine grapes grains and table grape grains, is mostly selection and cultural practices. Table grape is grown for volume and freshness, wine grape is grown to be concentrated in sugar and other compounds, with lower yields, higher maturity, etc. Both use lots of pesticides nowadays unfortunately. As for their capability of sustaining life, I don’t know. Grape was used for fasting and purging traditionally :)