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Thank you. I am getting destroyed in this thread. I thought this was hacker news. I don't understand the level of confidence being accorded here to centralizing

by pgayed 6y ago

Thank you. I am getting destroyed in this thread. I thought this was hacker news. I don't understand the level of confidence being accorded here to centralizing bodies.

CryptoPunk 6y ago
To the layman, theories on the efficacy of free markets sounds like a type of fundemantalism, and economists who promulgate it are suspected of being coopted to promote the interests of a corporate elite. Anti-free-market-ism is the anti-vaxxerism of the intelligentsia. To this group, anti-free-market-ism is seen as a form of contrarianism, that open-minded/free-spirited people engage in.
- sgt101 6y ago
  "Anti-free-market-ism is the anti-vaxxerism of the intelligentsia." It isn't - the fact is that the "free market" is in fact a market shackled to whoever has the capital to manipulate it. That's seen in every market in history sooner or later. The time and extent of capital dominance is determined by regulation - the more regulation, the later and less rigged in favour of the richest participant the market is. These are just facts - free markets aren't free, they aren't efficient and they aren't good. Unfortunately the known alternative is a fudge.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - CryptoPunk 6y ago
    >>These are just facts It's no such thing. It's quackery rejected by experts.
    - sgt101 6y ago
      You can see it; under stress markets fail to clear because the actors stop acting rationally. This leaves market participants holding assets that in theory they should have been able to offload. This is because free market theory depends on rational actors working without friction and with perfect information. In reality the actors are irrational, the process has friction and information is horded and distributed unequally with noise.
      - CryptoPunk 6y ago
        Rational actors make money from the irrational behavior of others, leading to the most rational acquiring more capital at the expense of the less rational over time, and therefore capital in general being governed more rationally. To put it another way, the market rewards economically beneficial behavior, like shorting bubbles and investing during depressions. That markets reduce market volatility is a widely accepted conclusion of economists.
- jahaja 6y ago
  > To the layman, theories on the efficacy of free markets sounds like a type of fundemantalism > Anti-free-market-ism is the anti-vaxxerism of the intelligentsia. Well, I mean, yes? That is blatant fundamentalism. "Everyone who doesn't agree with the magic of the free market is as stupid as anti-vaxxers"
  - CryptoPunk 6y ago
    The theory that free markets are highly effective isn't based on a belief in magic. It's based on the fundamental nature of information and capital allocation. The theory is logically sound in the same way the theory of evolution is. It's accepted economic theory validated by centuries of emperical evidence. Rejecting it based on misunderstanding the science behind it, and believing in conspiracy theories about a capitalist oligarchy coopting the Economics field, is similar to anti-vaxxerism.
    - jahaja 6y ago
      > The theory that free markets are highly effective isn't based on a belief in magic. Well, yes, that capitalism will cause a production craze is even written in the Communist Manifesto. What "effective" means in practice however is another thing - there's nothing effective about planned obsolescence, great for the current measurement of economic growth though. > The theory is logically sound in the same way the theory of evolution is. Please refer to a single established scientist that agrees with that cocksure statement. > believing in conspiracy theories about a capitalist oligarchy coopting the Economics field There is nothing conspiratorial to question the theories of the current hegemony who have a vested interests to uphold it. The upper classes have come up with theories throughout history to justify their privileges that have no basis in social justice.
      - CryptoPunk 6y ago
        The production craze you deride is what lets people living in brutal poverty elevate their standard of living. Planned obsolescence is not a general property of a market-driven economy. See cars for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY/comments/zbxa6/resurrection_1986_alfa_romeo_spider_does_diy_like/c63d2zp/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY/comments/zbxa6/resurrection_198... 'Capitalism produces planned obsolesence' is another talking point referenced by activists who haven't studied economics and therefore have a simplistic/cynical understanding of it. >Please refer to a single established scientist that agrees with that cocksure statement. Any economic textbook lays out the advantages of the free market, or market freedom, as I've described. That it is generally Pareto Efficient is widely accepted in Economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency#Use_in_public_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency#Use_in_publi... >There is nothing conspiratorial to question the theories of the current hegemony who have a vested interests to uphold it. This very sentence puts forward a theoretical conspiracy.

by pgayed 6y ago

Thank you. I am getting destroyed in this thread. I thought this was hacker news. I don't understand the level of confidence being accorded here to centralizing bodies.

CryptoPunk 6y ago

To the layman, theories on the efficacy of free markets sounds like a type of fundemantalism, and economists who promulgate it are suspected of being coopted to promote the interests of a corporate elite. Anti-free-market-ism is the anti-vaxxerism of the intelligentsia. To this group, anti-free-market-ism is seen as a form of contrarianism, that open-minded/free-spirited people engage in.

sgt101 6y ago
"Anti-free-market-ism is the anti-vaxxerism of the intelligentsia." It isn't - the fact is that the "free market" is in fact a market shackled to whoever has the capital to manipulate it. That's seen in every market in history sooner or later. The time and extent of capital dominance is determined by regulation - the more regulation, the later and less rigged in favour of the richest participant the market is. These are just facts - free markets aren't free, they aren't efficient and they aren't good. Unfortunately the known alternative is a fudge.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- CryptoPunk 6y ago
  >>These are just facts It's no such thing. It's quackery rejected by experts.
  - sgt101 6y ago
    You can see it; under stress markets fail to clear because the actors stop acting rationally. This leaves market participants holding assets that in theory they should have been able to offload. This is because free market theory depends on rational actors working without friction and with perfect information. In reality the actors are irrational, the process has friction and information is horded and distributed unequally with noise.
    - CryptoPunk 6y ago
      Rational actors make money from the irrational behavior of others, leading to the most rational acquiring more capital at the expense of the less rational over time, and therefore capital in general being governed more rationally. To put it another way, the market rewards economically beneficial behavior, like shorting bubbles and investing during depressions. That markets reduce market volatility is a widely accepted conclusion of economists.
jahaja 6y ago
> To the layman, theories on the efficacy of free markets sounds like a type of fundemantalism > Anti-free-market-ism is the anti-vaxxerism of the intelligentsia. Well, I mean, yes? That is blatant fundamentalism. "Everyone who doesn't agree with the magic of the free market is as stupid as anti-vaxxers"
- CryptoPunk 6y ago
  The theory that free markets are highly effective isn't based on a belief in magic. It's based on the fundamental nature of information and capital allocation. The theory is logically sound in the same way the theory of evolution is. It's accepted economic theory validated by centuries of emperical evidence. Rejecting it based on misunderstanding the science behind it, and believing in conspiracy theories about a capitalist oligarchy coopting the Economics field, is similar to anti-vaxxerism.
  - jahaja 6y ago
    > The theory that free markets are highly effective isn't based on a belief in magic. Well, yes, that capitalism will cause a production craze is even written in the Communist Manifesto. What "effective" means in practice however is another thing - there's nothing effective about planned obsolescence, great for the current measurement of economic growth though. > The theory is logically sound in the same way the theory of evolution is. Please refer to a single established scientist that agrees with that cocksure statement. > believing in conspiracy theories about a capitalist oligarchy coopting the Economics field There is nothing conspiratorial to question the theories of the current hegemony who have a vested interests to uphold it. The upper classes have come up with theories throughout history to justify their privileges that have no basis in social justice.
    - CryptoPunk 6y ago
      The production craze you deride is what lets people living in brutal poverty elevate their standard of living. Planned obsolescence is not a general property of a market-driven economy. See cars for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY/comments/zbxa6/resurrection_1986_alfa_romeo_spider_does_diy_like/c63d2zp/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY/comments/zbxa6/resurrection_198... 'Capitalism produces planned obsolesence' is another talking point referenced by activists who haven't studied economics and therefore have a simplistic/cynical understanding of it. >Please refer to a single established scientist that agrees with that cocksure statement. Any economic textbook lays out the advantages of the free market, or market freedom, as I've described. That it is generally Pareto Efficient is widely accepted in Economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency#Use_in_public_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency#Use_in_publi... >There is nothing conspiratorial to question the theories of the current hegemony who have a vested interests to uphold it. This very sentence puts forward a theoretical conspiracy.