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I fail to see your point. Does the number of U.S. prisoners diminish the vileness of what goes on in North Korea? Are you saying/suggesting that the numbers o

I fail to see your point. Does the number of U.S. prisoners diminish the vileness of what goes on in North Korea? Are you saying/suggesting that the numbers of prisoners in the U.S. are so great that other countries are beyond criticism? That it's hypocritical for Americans or the American government to be shocked by the situation in North Korea? Can you clarify?

josefresco 15y ago
I'll answer for him, it's your last suggestion It's hypocritical for someone in the US to criticize other nations about their prison systems when we're leading the world in locking people up for crazy shit. That's not to say we can't have an opinion, just not a holier-than-thou attitude about it.
- elliottcarlson 15y ago
  Not arguing whether people should be locked up or not for certain crimes - there is obviously an issue with that - but when it comes down to numbers - are we really leading the world in that area: North Koran Population: 23,906,070 Estimated "Prisoners": 200,000 Percentage in Custody: 0.83% United States Population: 307,006,550 Estimated Prisoners: 2,292,133 Percentage in Custody: 0.74% (Both numbers for US population and incarcerated people are from 2009)
  - bostonpete 15y ago
    My understanding is that North Koreans, by and large, have a very low quality of life, have limited rights, and are not free to leave. By that description, I'd have to say their percentage of prisoners is closer to 100%.
  - jerfelix 15y ago
    The percent of North Korean prisoners may be much higher, if you include those imprisoned that are not in concentration camps.
- nagrom 15y ago
  I don't think that, even in US prisons (which are rather inhumane compared to European standards, I think), prisoners are delighted when a companion dies because the extra food ration they get for burying the body allows them to keep starvation at bay. When "Thou" is plain fucking evil, it's perfectly acceptable to be holier-than-thou.
- yequalsx 15y ago
  I believe North Korea is number 1 in terms of percentage of its population in (formal) prison. The U.S. is number 2. The percentage of people in prison in the U.S. is grotesquely large. It's much larger than any other nation with comparable economic/religious/political freedoms. The U.S. judicial/prison system is quite bad in my opinion but the exact point that fijall was making was lost on me. Hence my request for a clarification. I will add that the entire nation of North Korea should be viewed as a giant prison. This makes North Korea incomparable to other nations. It's unique in this respect.
  - ultrasaurus 15y ago
    The US with a functioning bureaucracy has access to options that NK doesn't have, such as probation and house arrest (even suspended sentences need paperwork) -- 3.1% of the US is "on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole" (Wikipedia - that's more than I expected, how does it afford that?)
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- raganwald 15y ago
  It may sound hypocritical for an American to oppose concentration camps in North Korea based on America's prison-happy justice system, but please keep two things in mind: 1. It is only hypocritical for the speaker if he supports America's prison-happy justice system. If he opposes it, or has misgivings, or is undecided, it is not hypocritical to oppose North Korea. 2. Even if it is hypocrisy, that doesn't diminish his words in any way, just your personal opinion of him. If his criticism is invalid, it can be disputed directly. If his criticism is valid, he could be as flawed and terrible a human being as we can imagine and his criticism would still be valid. #2 is the key point. Arguing that his words are hypocritical is a kind of Ad Hominem Abuse, something generally discouraged on HN as a kind of intellectual laziness, a rhetorical appeal to emotion rather than an analysis of the argument being debated.
  - bloggergirl 15y ago
    Excellent, well-formed points, raganwald.
baltcode 15y ago
No, the severity of the NK situation is not diminished in the least by US prisons. Neither is the severity of the problems of some people stuck in prison revolving doors in the US diminished by the greater injustice in NK. It is hypocritical of anyone to try and deflect justified criticism by pointing somewhere else. Other countries are not beyond criticism, but many people feel that they should be beyond the "lets invade them" policy.

josefresco 15y ago

I'll answer for him, it's your last suggestion It's hypocritical for someone in the US to criticize other nations about their prison systems when we're leading the world in locking people up for crazy shit. That's not to say we can't have an opinion, just not a holier-than-thou attitude about it.

elliottcarlson 15y ago
Not arguing whether people should be locked up or not for certain crimes - there is obviously an issue with that - but when it comes down to numbers - are we really leading the world in that area: North Koran Population: 23,906,070 Estimated "Prisoners": 200,000 Percentage in Custody: 0.83% United States Population: 307,006,550 Estimated Prisoners: 2,292,133 Percentage in Custody: 0.74% (Both numbers for US population and incarcerated people are from 2009)
- bostonpete 15y ago
  My understanding is that North Koreans, by and large, have a very low quality of life, have limited rights, and are not free to leave. By that description, I'd have to say their percentage of prisoners is closer to 100%.
- jerfelix 15y ago
  The percent of North Korean prisoners may be much higher, if you include those imprisoned that are not in concentration camps.
nagrom 15y ago
I don't think that, even in US prisons (which are rather inhumane compared to European standards, I think), prisoners are delighted when a companion dies because the extra food ration they get for burying the body allows them to keep starvation at bay. When "Thou" is plain fucking evil, it's perfectly acceptable to be holier-than-thou.
yequalsx 15y ago
I believe North Korea is number 1 in terms of percentage of its population in (formal) prison. The U.S. is number 2. The percentage of people in prison in the U.S. is grotesquely large. It's much larger than any other nation with comparable economic/religious/political freedoms. The U.S. judicial/prison system is quite bad in my opinion but the exact point that fijall was making was lost on me. Hence my request for a clarification. I will add that the entire nation of North Korea should be viewed as a giant prison. This makes North Korea incomparable to other nations. It's unique in this respect.
- ultrasaurus 15y ago
  The US with a functioning bureaucracy has access to options that NK doesn't have, such as probation and house arrest (even suspended sentences need paperwork) -- 3.1% of the US is "on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole" (Wikipedia - that's more than I expected, how does it afford that?)
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
raganwald 15y ago
It may sound hypocritical for an American to oppose concentration camps in North Korea based on America's prison-happy justice system, but please keep two things in mind: 1. It is only hypocritical for the speaker if he supports America's prison-happy justice system. If he opposes it, or has misgivings, or is undecided, it is not hypocritical to oppose North Korea. 2. Even if it is hypocrisy, that doesn't diminish his words in any way, just your personal opinion of him. If his criticism is invalid, it can be disputed directly. If his criticism is valid, he could be as flawed and terrible a human being as we can imagine and his criticism would still be valid. #2 is the key point. Arguing that his words are hypocritical is a kind of Ad Hominem Abuse, something generally discouraged on HN as a kind of intellectual laziness, a rhetorical appeal to emotion rather than an analysis of the argument being debated.
- bloggergirl 15y ago
  Excellent, well-formed points, raganwald.

baltcode 15y ago

No, the severity of the NK situation is not diminished in the least by US prisons. Neither is the severity of the problems of some people stuck in prison revolving doors in the US diminished by the greater injustice in NK. It is hypocritical of anyone to try and deflect justified criticism by pointing somewhere else. Other countries are not beyond criticism, but many people feel that they should be beyond the "lets invade them" policy.