4 ms·

What does a "tool that allows you to think through problems" look like? This claim is unsubstantiated. You have provided nothing to discredit an assertion that

What does a "tool that allows you to think through problems" look like? This claim is unsubstantiated. You have provided nothing to discredit an assertion that no such tool exists, and certainly haven't provided any criteria by which your claim could be falsified. Your claim is: 1. Such a tool(s) exists -- how can I know? 2. PHP is not one of these tools -- why not? 3. PHP practitioners don't value these tools -- huh? It's a total non-sequitur. Your criticism reads as "PHP solves problems differently than how I want to solve them". That is a totally reasonable opinion to hold (many do)! That's not really a reflection of PHP, it's a reflection of yourself. And that's okay! You don't have to like PHP. But it is a little offensive to try to justify your preferences in a way that passes sweeping judgement over anyone who programs in PHP. Especially when your argument insinuates that PHP programmers must have a deficit in their ability to think through problems...

afarrell 6y ago
> Your criticism reads as "PHP solves problems differently than how I want to solve them" Fantastic. Then I am communicating my intent. > You have provided nothing to discredit an assertion that no such tool exists I don't have to. I'm only saying that you think no such tool exists and I think think that (for me at least) such tools do exist. > Especially when your argument insinuates that PHP programmers must have a deficit in their ability to think through problems... It only insinuates that if you edit my sentence to remove the words "the impact that their tools have on" from my sentence.
- kingdomcome50 6y ago
  To suggest that such tools exist, that these tools impact one's ability to effectively(!) think through problems, and that PHP programmers simply don't value these tools does insinuate a belief that PHP programmers are in some way unable to effectively think through problems. A broad claim indeed! Add to the above that you are unable to define, identify, or in any way clarify what criteria you are using to classify these tools, how it is they impact a person's ability to effectively think through problems, and why PHP is not one of them... and we are left with an obvious conclusion: you don't know what you are talking about. Suggesting that PHP doesn't allow you to effectively think through problems, while certainly ripe for some fleshing out, is very different than saying PHP programmers (other people!) don't value tools that allow them to effectively think through problems. We call my first paragraph ignorance, and the second projection. Turns out I was right! At the end of the day any answer to a question asking why people condescend PHP programmers that doesn't dismiss the premise is itself condescending (or at the very least an admission thereof). > "Why do you condescend PHP programmers?" > "They don't share my values." That's essentially your argument. Well... that's not really an argument is it? What are their values? What are your values? Why is one set better than the other? And most importantly, why does this lead to condescension? The answers to the above, as I pointed out in my original comment, lead to only one conclusion: you've only identified a deficit in yourself.
  - afarrell 6y ago
    Yes, I _do_ think that you don't value something you consider fictional. > any answer to a question asking why people condescend PHP programmers that doesn't dismiss the premise is itself condescending. If that was the mindset you started with, then my attempt to give a nuanced answer the question was doomed from the start. > you've only identified a deficit in yourself. Yes, identified a deficit in myself which, much like lactose intolerance or celiac disease, applies in some situations. This whole thread is additional evidence that trying to communicate with PHP developers about cognitive processes is one of them. The right response for me is to avoid that.
    - kingdomcome50 6y ago
      I'm not a PHP developer! And you have therefore made my point repeatedly. You have come to believe something about me in total ignorance. Why don't you provide me with some non-fiction? I've asked repeatedly if you could delineate what a "tool that allows you to effectively think through problems" might look like, but the only answer I have received so far is "I don't have to". Very convincing! Of course we both know that you won't because doing so would move the concept out of your head (where it is just a prop) into this discussion where, inevitably, it will be shown to be insufficient to your argument. You need to hold onto it because it is the only straw you have left. I understand your unwillingness to be made a fool. You are a poker player who insists they have won the hand, but refuses to show their cards. Unfortunately I'm calling your bluff! I've had you nailed down on this since your very first comment and here we are, days later, and you have yet to substantiate your claim beyond "I believe it to be true". A true work of cognitive genius! Or is it dissonance? It's always interesting to see which of my thoughts garner a response. I'll take a page out of your playbook and make a prediction myself: A) You will continue to avoid to substantiate your claim and focus on something else entirely. B) You will substantiate your claim by providing only criteria to which PHP does not meet (e.g. "multi-threaded") without providing any information as to how those criteria support your premise (essentially arguing "not PHP" in more words). C) You will not respond at all. At this point I think you are right. The answer is C! Sometimes you are overmatched and it's best to just avoid the interaction. It's healthier that way. Good luck!

afarrell 6y ago

> Your criticism reads as "PHP solves problems differently than how I want to solve them" Fantastic. Then I am communicating my intent. > You have provided nothing to discredit an assertion that no such tool exists I don't have to. I'm only saying that you think no such tool exists and I think think that (for me at least) such tools do exist. > Especially when your argument insinuates that PHP programmers must have a deficit in their ability to think through problems... It only insinuates that if you edit my sentence to remove the words "the impact that their tools have on" from my sentence.

kingdomcome50 6y ago
To suggest that such tools exist, that these tools impact one's ability to effectively(!) think through problems, and that PHP programmers simply don't value these tools does insinuate a belief that PHP programmers are in some way unable to effectively think through problems. A broad claim indeed! Add to the above that you are unable to define, identify, or in any way clarify what criteria you are using to classify these tools, how it is they impact a person's ability to effectively think through problems, and why PHP is not one of them... and we are left with an obvious conclusion: you don't know what you are talking about. Suggesting that PHP doesn't allow you to effectively think through problems, while certainly ripe for some fleshing out, is very different than saying PHP programmers (other people!) don't value tools that allow them to effectively think through problems. We call my first paragraph ignorance, and the second projection. Turns out I was right! At the end of the day any answer to a question asking why people condescend PHP programmers that doesn't dismiss the premise is itself condescending (or at the very least an admission thereof). > "Why do you condescend PHP programmers?" > "They don't share my values." That's essentially your argument. Well... that's not really an argument is it? What are their values? What are your values? Why is one set better than the other? And most importantly, why does this lead to condescension? The answers to the above, as I pointed out in my original comment, lead to only one conclusion: you've only identified a deficit in yourself.
- afarrell 6y ago
  Yes, I _do_ think that you don't value something you consider fictional. > any answer to a question asking why people condescend PHP programmers that doesn't dismiss the premise is itself condescending. If that was the mindset you started with, then my attempt to give a nuanced answer the question was doomed from the start. > you've only identified a deficit in yourself. Yes, identified a deficit in myself which, much like lactose intolerance or celiac disease, applies in some situations. This whole thread is additional evidence that trying to communicate with PHP developers about cognitive processes is one of them. The right response for me is to avoid that.
  - kingdomcome50 6y ago
    I'm not a PHP developer! And you have therefore made my point repeatedly. You have come to believe something about me in total ignorance. Why don't you provide me with some non-fiction? I've asked repeatedly if you could delineate what a "tool that allows you to effectively think through problems" might look like, but the only answer I have received so far is "I don't have to". Very convincing! Of course we both know that you won't because doing so would move the concept out of your head (where it is just a prop) into this discussion where, inevitably, it will be shown to be insufficient to your argument. You need to hold onto it because it is the only straw you have left. I understand your unwillingness to be made a fool. You are a poker player who insists they have won the hand, but refuses to show their cards. Unfortunately I'm calling your bluff! I've had you nailed down on this since your very first comment and here we are, days later, and you have yet to substantiate your claim beyond "I believe it to be true". A true work of cognitive genius! Or is it dissonance? It's always interesting to see which of my thoughts garner a response. I'll take a page out of your playbook and make a prediction myself: A) You will continue to avoid to substantiate your claim and focus on something else entirely. B) You will substantiate your claim by providing only criteria to which PHP does not meet (e.g. "multi-threaded") without providing any information as to how those criteria support your premise (essentially arguing "not PHP" in more words). C) You will not respond at all. At this point I think you are right. The answer is C! Sometimes you are overmatched and it's best to just avoid the interaction. It's healthier that way. Good luck!