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2,292,133 were in prisons in the United States in 2009 [from wikipedia]. Even though I guess conditions are better, 200 000 doesn't sound like that many after a

by fijall 15y ago

2,292,133 were in prisons in the United States in 2009 [from wikipedia]. Even though I guess conditions are better, 200 000 doesn't sound like that many after all.

bloggergirl 15y ago
Sorry, fijall, that the number of enslaved people (who are in many cases not guilty of crimes beyond disagreeing with a dictator) is not adequately horrific for you. Perhaps if they were 200,000 people you knew... or even one you knew.
- abrown28 15y ago
  It makes me sick that a large percentage of the people in American jails are there for crimes that hurt no one but themselves but to compare this to the people in North Korea is just asinine.
  - Wickk 15y ago
    Agreed. A conversation about our prison system is irrelevant. We're not locking people up in mass and forcing them to live in death camps. Our prison system is far from perfect but it doesn't compare to what these people are going through.
    - schmittz 15y ago
      While I agree that such a conversation is irrelevant to this post, I would say that in certain cases we are pretty close to locking people up en masse and forcing them to live in fairly abominable circumstances albeit not death camps.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - CWuestefeld 15y ago
      As I see it, the difference is only in degree. In both cases, people are being denied their freedom and taken away from their families, for engaging in activities that hurt no one, not even themselves. It's certainly true that American prisons are better. But given the OP's definition: "enduring starvation, torture, and rape while performing hard labor", we do hit a couple of checkboxes. My understanding is that prison rape, with guards just looking the other way, is still a real problem in America. And take a look down at Guantanamo for (an admittedly small number of) people who are imprisoned and tortured "without legal recourse", as the OP says. So it's just a matter of degree. There's certainly a good deal of ground for comparison.
      - jhamburger 15y ago
        In this case the degree is fairly important though. If we ignore degree completely we have most of the liberal democracies in the world lumped in with NK, Libya and Zimbabwe. Obviously lines must be drawn.
        CWuestefeld 15y ago
        That just begs the question. Where must the line be drawn? Those disagreeing with my point seem to feel that the line should be right between us and whoever is more ruthless than us. But why do we automatically view ourselves on the correct side of that line? I've we're engaged, as a matter of policy, in activities that many or most Americans believe to be evil, doesn't that put the drawing of the line into question?
        jhamburger 15y ago
        I'm not asserting that the US has a superior human rights record or that we don't engage in policy that could be seen as 'evil'. The argument being made here seems to be that we lack the moral high ground to criticize the NK regime. I've heard a similar argument used to counter the US criticisms of China's human rights record, and while I think it could be relevant in that case, we're talking about mass death camps here. This is a completely different animal. We don't need to be perfect citizens to condemn abhorrant policy like this.
  - sedachv 15y ago
    How is it asinine to compare what is happening in North Korea to what is happening to black men in the USA?
    - jhamburger 15y ago
      Which would you rather be? Is it a close decision?
      - sedachv 15y ago
        If I was a black male in the United States, I would have a 1 in 10 chance of being in prison at this moment. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Prison_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Sta...) Amnesty International estimates there's around 200,000 "political prisoners" in North Korea, out of a population of 25 million. I think I'd rather be in North Korea.
        jhamburger 15y ago
        I think I'd take a 10% chance of being in prison over a 100% chance of being a NK citizen.
        elliottcarlson 15y ago
        The remaining populous of North Korea that are outside of these camps aren't living a life of luxury - the day to day life there is still not comparable to the prison system.
        gyardley 15y ago
        Both the conditions of incarceration and conditions of not-incarceration are dramatically better in the United States. That so many people in this thread are trying to suggest that the United States is somehow worse than North Korea or that people from the United States can't criticize North Korea saddens me. The United States' prison system has obvious problems. All of North Korea is a totalitarian hellhole.
        rick888 15y ago
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
yequalsx 15y ago
I fail to see your point. Does the number of U.S. prisoners diminish the vileness of what goes on in North Korea? Are you saying/suggesting that the numbers of prisoners in the U.S. are so great that other countries are beyond criticism? That it's hypocritical for Americans or the American government to be shocked by the situation in North Korea? Can you clarify?
- josefresco 15y ago
  I'll answer for him, it's your last suggestion It's hypocritical for someone in the US to criticize other nations about their prison systems when we're leading the world in locking people up for crazy shit. That's not to say we can't have an opinion, just not a holier-than-thou attitude about it.
  - elliottcarlson 15y ago
    Not arguing whether people should be locked up or not for certain crimes - there is obviously an issue with that - but when it comes down to numbers - are we really leading the world in that area: North Koran Population: 23,906,070 Estimated "Prisoners": 200,000 Percentage in Custody: 0.83% United States Population: 307,006,550 Estimated Prisoners: 2,292,133 Percentage in Custody: 0.74% (Both numbers for US population and incarcerated people are from 2009)
    - bostonpete 15y ago
      My understanding is that North Koreans, by and large, have a very low quality of life, have limited rights, and are not free to leave. By that description, I'd have to say their percentage of prisoners is closer to 100%.
    - jerfelix 15y ago
      The percent of North Korean prisoners may be much higher, if you include those imprisoned that are not in concentration camps.
  - nagrom 15y ago
Goronmon 15y ago
Are you arguing that prisons in the US are akin to what is described as concentration camps in the article, or that what is described in the article is comparable to what you find in US prisons?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
  - code_duck 15y ago
    The juvenile prisons are even worse. Act up in school, smoke pot - wait, we need to straighten you out! How about instead of going to school and living at home, you go to a privately run prison where several guards sexually assault you ever day for two or three years. The rest of the time your peers will beat you up and demonstrate dangerous ways to use drugs. Customer acquired, now you're likely to be generating business for our Prison Corporation for the rest of your life.
sid0 15y ago
23.9 million North Koreans -- all of them -- are effectively in prison.

by fijall 15y ago

2,292,133 were in prisons in the United States in 2009 [from wikipedia]. Even though I guess conditions are better, 200 000 doesn't sound like that many after all.

bloggergirl 15y ago

Sorry, fijall, that the number of enslaved people (who are in many cases not guilty of crimes beyond disagreeing with a dictator) is not adequately horrific for you. Perhaps if they were 200,000 people you knew... or even one you knew.

abrown28 15y ago
It makes me sick that a large percentage of the people in American jails are there for crimes that hurt no one but themselves but to compare this to the people in North Korea is just asinine.
- Wickk 15y ago
  Agreed. A conversation about our prison system is irrelevant. We're not locking people up in mass and forcing them to live in death camps. Our prison system is far from perfect but it doesn't compare to what these people are going through.
  - schmittz 15y ago
    While I agree that such a conversation is irrelevant to this post, I would say that in certain cases we are pretty close to locking people up en masse and forcing them to live in fairly abominable circumstances albeit not death camps.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - CWuestefeld 15y ago
    As I see it, the difference is only in degree. In both cases, people are being denied their freedom and taken away from their families, for engaging in activities that hurt no one, not even themselves. It's certainly true that American prisons are better. But given the OP's definition: "enduring starvation, torture, and rape while performing hard labor", we do hit a couple of checkboxes. My understanding is that prison rape, with guards just looking the other way, is still a real problem in America. And take a look down at Guantanamo for (an admittedly small number of) people who are imprisoned and tortured "without legal recourse", as the OP says. So it's just a matter of degree. There's certainly a good deal of ground for comparison.
    - jhamburger 15y ago
      In this case the degree is fairly important though. If we ignore degree completely we have most of the liberal democracies in the world lumped in with NK, Libya and Zimbabwe. Obviously lines must be drawn.
      - CWuestefeld 15y ago
        That just begs the question. Where must the line be drawn? Those disagreeing with my point seem to feel that the line should be right between us and whoever is more ruthless than us. But why do we automatically view ourselves on the correct side of that line? I've we're engaged, as a matter of policy, in activities that many or most Americans believe to be evil, doesn't that put the drawing of the line into question?
        jhamburger 15y ago
        I'm not asserting that the US has a superior human rights record or that we don't engage in policy that could be seen as 'evil'. The argument being made here seems to be that we lack the moral high ground to criticize the NK regime. I've heard a similar argument used to counter the US criticisms of China's human rights record, and while I think it could be relevant in that case, we're talking about mass death camps here. This is a completely different animal. We don't need to be perfect citizens to condemn abhorrant policy like this.
- sedachv 15y ago
  How is it asinine to compare what is happening in North Korea to what is happening to black men in the USA?
  - jhamburger 15y ago
    Which would you rather be? Is it a close decision?
    - sedachv 15y ago
      If I was a black male in the United States, I would have a 1 in 10 chance of being in prison at this moment. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Prison_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Sta...) Amnesty International estimates there's around 200,000 "political prisoners" in North Korea, out of a population of 25 million. I think I'd rather be in North Korea.
      - jhamburger 15y ago
        I think I'd take a 10% chance of being in prison over a 100% chance of being a NK citizen.
      - elliottcarlson 15y ago
        The remaining populous of North Korea that are outside of these camps aren't living a life of luxury - the day to day life there is still not comparable to the prison system.
      - gyardley 15y ago
        Both the conditions of incarceration and conditions of not-incarceration are dramatically better in the United States. That so many people in this thread are trying to suggest that the United States is somehow worse than North Korea or that people from the United States can't criticize North Korea saddens me. The United States' prison system has obvious problems. All of North Korea is a totalitarian hellhole.
      - rick888 15y ago
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

yequalsx 15y ago

I fail to see your point. Does the number of U.S. prisoners diminish the vileness of what goes on in North Korea? Are you saying/suggesting that the numbers of prisoners in the U.S. are so great that other countries are beyond criticism? That it's hypocritical for Americans or the American government to be shocked by the situation in North Korea? Can you clarify?

josefresco 15y ago
I'll answer for him, it's your last suggestion It's hypocritical for someone in the US to criticize other nations about their prison systems when we're leading the world in locking people up for crazy shit. That's not to say we can't have an opinion, just not a holier-than-thou attitude about it.
- elliottcarlson 15y ago
  Not arguing whether people should be locked up or not for certain crimes - there is obviously an issue with that - but when it comes down to numbers - are we really leading the world in that area: North Koran Population: 23,906,070 Estimated "Prisoners": 200,000 Percentage in Custody: 0.83% United States Population: 307,006,550 Estimated Prisoners: 2,292,133 Percentage in Custody: 0.74% (Both numbers for US population and incarcerated people are from 2009)
  - bostonpete 15y ago
    My understanding is that North Koreans, by and large, have a very low quality of life, have limited rights, and are not free to leave. By that description, I'd have to say their percentage of prisoners is closer to 100%.
  - jerfelix 15y ago
    The percent of North Korean prisoners may be much higher, if you include those imprisoned that are not in concentration camps.
- nagrom 15y ago

Goronmon 15y ago

Are you arguing that prisons in the US are akin to what is described as concentration camps in the article, or that what is described in the article is comparable to what you find in US prisons?

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
- code_duck 15y ago
  The juvenile prisons are even worse. Act up in school, smoke pot - wait, we need to straighten you out! How about instead of going to school and living at home, you go to a privately run prison where several guards sexually assault you ever day for two or three years. The rest of the time your peers will beat you up and demonstrate dangerous ways to use drugs. Customer acquired, now you're likely to be generating business for our Prison Corporation for the rest of your life.

sid0 15y ago

23.9 million North Koreans -- all of them -- are effectively in prison.