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The first thing I used to do when getting a new (used) auto would be to go buy a repair manual- for some reason I didn’t do that for my wife’s when we bought it

The first thing I used to do when getting a new (used) auto would be to go buy a repair manual- for some reason I didn’t do that for my wife’s when we bought it. I (this week) just bought a Hayne’s for my wife’s car as it’s finally getting to that age (5 years old) and I needed to put a new parking brake pedal in. I couldn’t believe how little detail was in it. I’ve still got my Hayne’s and Chilton’s hanging around for cars I don’t own anymore (all US autos from 1988-2010) and this book is by far the thinnest. On top of that, there was NO INFORMATION on the parking brake assembly at all. My buddy, a Ford mechanic, broke the bad news to me, the entire lower side of the dash had to come off. This wasn’t some niche model either, it’s an Explorer, which remained largely unchanged from 2011-2018. The documentation for the dash disassembly was basically three pictures, no exploded diagram of the half dozen trim pieces that all interlock, nothing. Maybe they packed it in a while ago?

dkdk8283 6y ago
I think once CAN bus started becoming ubiquitous beyond OBD-II compliance the effort put into independent repair manuals fell off the cliff. I have had Jeep vehicles over the years and have made friends on forums who share information: I’ve had almost everything apart on a 2008 vehicle. Mopar sells manuals online if you subscribe to TechConnect but you still really need wiTech to complete many of the procedures. Automotive repair has been relinquished to tribal knowledge and it’s unfortunate. I think most of us advocate for right to repair but it has such a strong second order effect it doesn’t get the attention it deserves with the broader public. My dealer is incompetent. One of the techs did burnouts in my car and posted it on youtube 12 years ago. Ever since then I have never used dealer service again. I even went as far as not taking advantage of my warranty once.
- manyxcxi 6y ago
  Yeah but CAN bus is all about the various electronic modules talking together. The parking brake assembly has a switch on it to detect if the pedal is depressed, IE the parking brake is applied. I could understand not detailing those too much, because even the knowledge won’t help you when your “entertainment module” AKA radio is VIN locked and you HAVE to go to the dealership to deal with it. There was no mention of the parking brake, the cables, or the fact that the parking brake is tied to the rear brakes in the entire manual. It was honestly the first time I’ve ever been disappointed with a manual. Then again, all my old books prior to ‘01 are a Chilton which are IMO more technical and precise. Of 8 books, only two are Hayne’s. And Hayne’s bought Chilton some time ago, so I’d be interested if Chilton is more like Hayne’s these days.
- dognotdog 6y ago
  > I think once CAN bus started becoming ubiquitous beyond OBD-II compliance [...] OBD has always been a small subset of what's happening on the CAN bus, or rather busses, nowadays. Some of the vendor specific things are necessarily unique, but a lot of it is deliberately obfuscated and undocumented because of various idiotic things. There is truth to the electronic systems in a car having become orders of magnitude more complex than 20 years ago, but that in itself doesn't quite cover it. Some problems arise without actual malicious intent because every itty bitty control module, of which there are nowadays several dozen in every car, is very likely outsourced by the OEMs, and the suppliers are as bad at following specs as the OEMs are at writing them. As market pressures have resulted in OEMs and suppliers having more adversarial relationships, both sides have become less willing to fix the other side's mistakes, and the customer is the one who takes the bath for it. The only ones winning in the automotive industry's OEM-supplier setup are wall-street, as they encourage the race to the bottom just to squeeze all possible short-term value out of the industry (and often taxpayer money) through an endless cycle of bankruptcies, spin-offs, and mergers. Another problem is an acute lack of competency regarding computer systems design and implementations, as many OEMs are still stuck in processes meant for mechanical components, not electronics and software. Even subtracting all the above idiocy, the industry as a whole sees no money in providing a servicable automobile. Unless the incentive changes because of consumer behaviour or regulation, nobody's going to put in the extra engineering work to improve the mechanic's "interface" as long as there's simply no profit in it.
- m463 6y ago
  There have been two trends that have drastically affected my car repair experience: - cars have become more electronic, more complicated and more ruthlessly "designed for assembly" - the cars I could afford when young were usually older than I was and domestic - this meant they were simpler in all respects. Those two trends have made car repair a lot different over the years and the manuals have become somewhat less useful.
userbinator 6y ago
That's disappointing to hear, as for the longest time the availability of parts and repair information for American vehicles was much better than foreign brands.

dkdk8283 6y ago

I think once CAN bus started becoming ubiquitous beyond OBD-II compliance the effort put into independent repair manuals fell off the cliff. I have had Jeep vehicles over the years and have made friends on forums who share information: I’ve had almost everything apart on a 2008 vehicle. Mopar sells manuals online if you subscribe to TechConnect but you still really need wiTech to complete many of the procedures. Automotive repair has been relinquished to tribal knowledge and it’s unfortunate. I think most of us advocate for right to repair but it has such a strong second order effect it doesn’t get the attention it deserves with the broader public. My dealer is incompetent. One of the techs did burnouts in my car and posted it on youtube 12 years ago. Ever since then I have never used dealer service again. I even went as far as not taking advantage of my warranty once.

manyxcxi 6y ago
Yeah but CAN bus is all about the various electronic modules talking together. The parking brake assembly has a switch on it to detect if the pedal is depressed, IE the parking brake is applied. I could understand not detailing those too much, because even the knowledge won’t help you when your “entertainment module” AKA radio is VIN locked and you HAVE to go to the dealership to deal with it. There was no mention of the parking brake, the cables, or the fact that the parking brake is tied to the rear brakes in the entire manual. It was honestly the first time I’ve ever been disappointed with a manual. Then again, all my old books prior to ‘01 are a Chilton which are IMO more technical and precise. Of 8 books, only two are Hayne’s. And Hayne’s bought Chilton some time ago, so I’d be interested if Chilton is more like Hayne’s these days.
dognotdog 6y ago
> I think once CAN bus started becoming ubiquitous beyond OBD-II compliance [...] OBD has always been a small subset of what's happening on the CAN bus, or rather busses, nowadays. Some of the vendor specific things are necessarily unique, but a lot of it is deliberately obfuscated and undocumented because of various idiotic things. There is truth to the electronic systems in a car having become orders of magnitude more complex than 20 years ago, but that in itself doesn't quite cover it. Some problems arise without actual malicious intent because every itty bitty control module, of which there are nowadays several dozen in every car, is very likely outsourced by the OEMs, and the suppliers are as bad at following specs as the OEMs are at writing them. As market pressures have resulted in OEMs and suppliers having more adversarial relationships, both sides have become less willing to fix the other side's mistakes, and the customer is the one who takes the bath for it. The only ones winning in the automotive industry's OEM-supplier setup are wall-street, as they encourage the race to the bottom just to squeeze all possible short-term value out of the industry (and often taxpayer money) through an endless cycle of bankruptcies, spin-offs, and mergers. Another problem is an acute lack of competency regarding computer systems design and implementations, as many OEMs are still stuck in processes meant for mechanical components, not electronics and software. Even subtracting all the above idiocy, the industry as a whole sees no money in providing a servicable automobile. Unless the incentive changes because of consumer behaviour or regulation, nobody's going to put in the extra engineering work to improve the mechanic's "interface" as long as there's simply no profit in it.
m463 6y ago
There have been two trends that have drastically affected my car repair experience: - cars have become more electronic, more complicated and more ruthlessly "designed for assembly" - the cars I could afford when young were usually older than I was and domestic - this meant they were simpler in all respects. Those two trends have made car repair a lot different over the years and the manuals have become somewhat less useful.

userbinator 6y ago

That's disappointing to hear, as for the longest time the availability of parts and repair information for American vehicles was much better than foreign brands.