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I'd imagine that a large number of those 91 million are people who hold membership for the purpose of group identification and virtue signalling, not because th

I'd imagine that a large number of those 91 million are people who hold membership for the purpose of group identification and virtue signalling, not because they have a specific role in a hierarchy.

ardy42 6y ago
> I'd imagine that a large number of those 91 million are people who hold membership for the purpose of group identification and virtue signalling, not because they have a specific role in a hierarchy. You're correct that most party members have "have [no] specific role in a hierarchy," but "group identification and virtue signalling," seriously? That feels like an inappropriate transfer of some stereotypes of the English-speaking left to the CCP. My understanding is that most people who join do so because being a member offers small privileges, like preferences in hiring.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > "group identification and virtue signalling," seriously? That feels like an inappropriate transfer of some stereotypes of the English-speaking left to the CCP. Why do you feel it is inappropriate? Human nature is human nature, its not as though Chinese are a sub-species of humans that has different psychology than American sub-species. People signaling values and identifying with groups is human nature. > My understanding is that most people who join do so because being a member offers small privileges, like preferences in hiring. Yes there are benefits to being in a group and sharing values with those in power.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > Why do you feel it is inappropriate? Because my understanding is that most Chinese people do not consider the CCP to be virtuous nor do they "identify" with it. That's not to say they're dissidents, but more semi-deliberately indifferent and have knowledge of and experience with government corruption. Even people who work for the party are often just going through the motions.
    - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
      Thanks for the reply. > Because my understanding is that most Chinese people do not consider the CCP to be virtuous nor do they "identify" with it. Perhaps its not meant to signal virtue to the majority but instead to the decision makers. Perhaps the majority do not identify as a member but the members do. > Even people who work for the party are often just going through the motions. That would be covered by signaling virtue.
      - ardy42 6y ago
        > Perhaps its not meant to signal virtue to the majority but instead to the decision makers. Perhaps the majority do not identify as a member but the members do. That's not "virtue signalling." If everyone involved in the interaction is cynical about the organization, no virtue is being signaled. The "decision makers" most of all know the true nature of the party. I think the word you're really looking for is just "signalling" or at least a different kind of signaling than "virtue signalling." You're really torturing that term into meaninglessness here. "Virtue signalling" really only applies to situations where at least some people genuinely think they're signalling virtue or that others would actually perceive it that way. One end or the other can be cynical, but not both.
        chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        > That's not "virtue signalling." If everyone involved in the interaction is cynical about the organization, no virtue is being signaled. The "decision makers" most of all know the true nature of the party. Its naive to assume that none of them consider the true nature of the party to be what constitutes "virtuous." > I think the word you're really looking for is just "signalling" or at least a different kind of signaling than "virtue signalling." You're really torturing that term into meaninglessness here. Sure. > "Virtue signalling" really only applies to situations where at least some people genuinely think they're signalling virtue or that others would actually perceive it that way. One end or the other can be cynical, but not both. Value signaling is perhaps a more value-neutral way of expressing the same sentiment.

I'd imagine that a large number of those 91 million are people who hold membership for the purpose of group identification and virtue signalling, not because they have a specific role in a hierarchy.

ardy42 6y ago

> I'd imagine that a large number of those 91 million are people who hold membership for the purpose of group identification and virtue signalling, not because they have a specific role in a hierarchy. You're correct that most party members have "have [no] specific role in a hierarchy," but "group identification and virtue signalling," seriously? That feels like an inappropriate transfer of some stereotypes of the English-speaking left to the CCP. My understanding is that most people who join do so because being a member offers small privileges, like preferences in hiring.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
> "group identification and virtue signalling," seriously? That feels like an inappropriate transfer of some stereotypes of the English-speaking left to the CCP. Why do you feel it is inappropriate? Human nature is human nature, its not as though Chinese are a sub-species of humans that has different psychology than American sub-species. People signaling values and identifying with groups is human nature. > My understanding is that most people who join do so because being a member offers small privileges, like preferences in hiring. Yes there are benefits to being in a group and sharing values with those in power.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > Why do you feel it is inappropriate? Because my understanding is that most Chinese people do not consider the CCP to be virtuous nor do they "identify" with it. That's not to say they're dissidents, but more semi-deliberately indifferent and have knowledge of and experience with government corruption. Even people who work for the party are often just going through the motions.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    Thanks for the reply. > Because my understanding is that most Chinese people do not consider the CCP to be virtuous nor do they "identify" with it. Perhaps its not meant to signal virtue to the majority but instead to the decision makers. Perhaps the majority do not identify as a member but the members do. > Even people who work for the party are often just going through the motions. That would be covered by signaling virtue.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > Perhaps its not meant to signal virtue to the majority but instead to the decision makers. Perhaps the majority do not identify as a member but the members do. That's not "virtue signalling." If everyone involved in the interaction is cynical about the organization, no virtue is being signaled. The "decision makers" most of all know the true nature of the party. I think the word you're really looking for is just "signalling" or at least a different kind of signaling than "virtue signalling." You're really torturing that term into meaninglessness here. "Virtue signalling" really only applies to situations where at least some people genuinely think they're signalling virtue or that others would actually perceive it that way. One end or the other can be cynical, but not both.
      - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        > That's not "virtue signalling." If everyone involved in the interaction is cynical about the organization, no virtue is being signaled. The "decision makers" most of all know the true nature of the party. Its naive to assume that none of them consider the true nature of the party to be what constitutes "virtuous." > I think the word you're really looking for is just "signalling" or at least a different kind of signaling than "virtue signalling." You're really torturing that term into meaninglessness here. Sure. > "Virtue signalling" really only applies to situations where at least some people genuinely think they're signalling virtue or that others would actually perceive it that way. One end or the other can be cynical, but not both. Value signaling is perhaps a more value-neutral way of expressing the same sentiment.