7 ms·

Is the far left really pushing for a centralized web ? Would you mind backing this statement up ?

ibeckermayer 6y ago
All the far-left groups and individuals pushing for the censorship of “hate” and “misinformation” are pushing for a centralized web.
- WJW 6y ago
  Can you back up that only far left groups are against hate and misinformation? Those topics seem like topic that everyone would be against? (Writing this from the EU, where most of the people have watched the past US election season with... "amazement". Especially the way in which both sides seem to feel they are the oppressed side.)
  - zreltemple 6y ago
    They posted those words in quotation marks. They're also subjective and prone to being defined by those with power. It'll be interesting to see how EU/Western Europe copes over the next 20 years, if they cope at all.
  - iphorde 6y ago
    Can you back up? Dude, pull your head out of the ground. Liberals are a dying breed. Liberalism is dying.
- CuriouslyC 6y ago
  They're pushing for censorship on social media, but I wouldn't say that has extended to the internet as a whole. Nobody's asking for email filters or website blacklisting.
  - jsnk 6y ago
    It goes well beyond social media, and internet. There are coordinated attacks by organizations with huge financial backings against political dissidents socially, financially and politically. Social media censorship is only the beginning. They already have come for people's livelihoods, bank accounts, jobs etc. Total castration seems like the end goal.
  - SuoDuanDao 6y ago
    Not yet. They're all for payment discrimination though[1], which IMHO is as extreme as things can get anyway. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FETt5JzufY4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FETt5JzufY4
- jim-jim-jim 6y ago
  I think you're confusing technocratic liberal weirdos with "the far left." Look up the World Socialist Web Site's long-running feud with Google, or read any Jacobin article about free speech/tech. There are very few genuine progressives who endorse policing "misinformation."
  - zreltemple 6y ago
    Most leftists, progressives & liberals are socially non-separable - both knee deep in CRT, censorship, twisting facts and outright lying the same way conservatives do. ML's are probably the only ones who have any ideas of their own and support certain levels of freedoms at least.
    - pessimizer 6y ago
      After you been given references to outlets that are indisputably both on the far-left and prominent who hold the opposite opinion, you assert as a response that all far-left groups are inseparable and hold the opinion that both the WSWS (the oldschool Fourth International socialists) and Jacobin (the newschool Bernie-boosting 2016 socialists) publicly disagree with. That's a complete aversion to evidence.
    - iphorde 6y ago
      In the USA, liberals are those that support the Bill of Rights. The Democratic Party is made up of Liberals, and those that call themselves Progressives. I'm a Liberal, the Progressives scare me, as they are for complete Government bureaucratic control of everything. Biden won as a moderate, not a Progressive, but if he picks up that torch, I don't know what happens.
  - iphorde 6y ago
    technocratic liberal, as in Communists? The word for them are Communists. Liberals are a dying breed.
    - jim-jim-jim 6y ago
      I encourage you to engage with the outlets I mentioned. Regardless of the terms you choose to use, I hope you can appreciate how actual left wing organizations are at odds with the censorship measures called for by the New York Times, Silicon Valley, DC think tanks, etc. You can't fight an enemy if you can't even name it properly.
- Ar-Curunir 6y ago
  What is your definition of far-left? Democrats? Because the latter are not left in any sense of the word, beyond being more "liberal" than the far-right Republicans. No leftists I know push for platform-provided censorship, because that inevitably harms left voices; eg: facebook taking down Crimethinc and It's Going Down: https://crimethinc.com/2020/08/19/on-facebook-banning-pages-that-support-crimethinccom-and-the-digital-censorship-to-come https://crimethinc.com/2020/08/19/on-facebook-banning-pages-...
notriddle 6y ago
I advocate for combating hate speech using the same methods that are used to combat any other form of abuse, such as spam or malware. On the centralized platforms, that role is filled by the centralized gatekeeper. On a decentralized platform, whatever plan you have to deal with manual spam can likely be used to block hate speech just as well.
- dane-pgp 6y ago
  > any other form of abuse, such as spam or malware. The difference you seem to be overlooking is that basically no one wants to receive abuse, spam or malware, whereas (depending on who is doing the censoring and who is being censored) maybe 30% to 50% of users want to receive the messages that the censor decides is "hate speech". I think what you're actually saying is "I advocate for centralized platforms combating hate speech provided their definition of that term happens to agree closely with my own".
  - notriddle 6y ago
    I'm not worried about the hangouts for the already converted. They can, and already do, use their own invite-only forums and encrypted chat systems for that. I'm worried about radicalizing the moderates, which is comparable to spam and malware, because (by definition) it's not content that the moderate was seeking out, even if it is tangentially related to the content that they were originally looking for.
iphorde 6y ago
Yes, the far left is pushing for a centralized web. One where all websites are controlled, censored, and belong to a government. To quote one in the USA. "The right of the worker to have access to information is one of the most important of human rights. All information and technology should be held by the state whereas the state should proffer all information to all workers." Well, we know how that works out. The person controlling the information is in control.

All the far-left groups and individuals pushing for the censorship of “hate” and “misinformation” are pushing for a centralized web.

WJW 6y ago
Can you back up that only far left groups are against hate and misinformation? Those topics seem like topic that everyone would be against? (Writing this from the EU, where most of the people have watched the past US election season with... "amazement". Especially the way in which both sides seem to feel they are the oppressed side.)
- zreltemple 6y ago
  They posted those words in quotation marks. They're also subjective and prone to being defined by those with power. It'll be interesting to see how EU/Western Europe copes over the next 20 years, if they cope at all.
- iphorde 6y ago
  Can you back up? Dude, pull your head out of the ground. Liberals are a dying breed. Liberalism is dying.
CuriouslyC 6y ago
They're pushing for censorship on social media, but I wouldn't say that has extended to the internet as a whole. Nobody's asking for email filters or website blacklisting.
- jsnk 6y ago
  It goes well beyond social media, and internet. There are coordinated attacks by organizations with huge financial backings against political dissidents socially, financially and politically. Social media censorship is only the beginning. They already have come for people's livelihoods, bank accounts, jobs etc. Total castration seems like the end goal.
- SuoDuanDao 6y ago
  Not yet. They're all for payment discrimination though[1], which IMHO is as extreme as things can get anyway. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FETt5JzufY4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FETt5JzufY4
jim-jim-jim 6y ago
I think you're confusing technocratic liberal weirdos with "the far left." Look up the World Socialist Web Site's long-running feud with Google, or read any Jacobin article about free speech/tech. There are very few genuine progressives who endorse policing "misinformation."
- zreltemple 6y ago
  Most leftists, progressives & liberals are socially non-separable - both knee deep in CRT, censorship, twisting facts and outright lying the same way conservatives do. ML's are probably the only ones who have any ideas of their own and support certain levels of freedoms at least.
  - pessimizer 6y ago
    After you been given references to outlets that are indisputably both on the far-left and prominent who hold the opposite opinion, you assert as a response that all far-left groups are inseparable and hold the opinion that both the WSWS (the oldschool Fourth International socialists) and Jacobin (the newschool Bernie-boosting 2016 socialists) publicly disagree with. That's a complete aversion to evidence.
  - iphorde 6y ago
    In the USA, liberals are those that support the Bill of Rights. The Democratic Party is made up of Liberals, and those that call themselves Progressives. I'm a Liberal, the Progressives scare me, as they are for complete Government bureaucratic control of everything. Biden won as a moderate, not a Progressive, but if he picks up that torch, I don't know what happens.
- iphorde 6y ago
  technocratic liberal, as in Communists? The word for them are Communists. Liberals are a dying breed.
  - jim-jim-jim 6y ago
    I encourage you to engage with the outlets I mentioned. Regardless of the terms you choose to use, I hope you can appreciate how actual left wing organizations are at odds with the censorship measures called for by the New York Times, Silicon Valley, DC think tanks, etc. You can't fight an enemy if you can't even name it properly.
Ar-Curunir 6y ago
What is your definition of far-left? Democrats? Because the latter are not left in any sense of the word, beyond being more "liberal" than the far-right Republicans. No leftists I know push for platform-provided censorship, because that inevitably harms left voices; eg: facebook taking down Crimethinc and It's Going Down: https://crimethinc.com/2020/08/19/on-facebook-banning-pages-that-support-crimethinccom-and-the-digital-censorship-to-come https://crimethinc.com/2020/08/19/on-facebook-banning-pages-...

notriddle 6y ago

I advocate for combating hate speech using the same methods that are used to combat any other form of abuse, such as spam or malware. On the centralized platforms, that role is filled by the centralized gatekeeper. On a decentralized platform, whatever plan you have to deal with manual spam can likely be used to block hate speech just as well.

dane-pgp 6y ago
> any other form of abuse, such as spam or malware. The difference you seem to be overlooking is that basically no one wants to receive abuse, spam or malware, whereas (depending on who is doing the censoring and who is being censored) maybe 30% to 50% of users want to receive the messages that the censor decides is "hate speech". I think what you're actually saying is "I advocate for centralized platforms combating hate speech provided their definition of that term happens to agree closely with my own".
- notriddle 6y ago
  I'm not worried about the hangouts for the already converted. They can, and already do, use their own invite-only forums and encrypted chat systems for that. I'm worried about radicalizing the moderates, which is comparable to spam and malware, because (by definition) it's not content that the moderate was seeking out, even if it is tangentially related to the content that they were originally looking for.

iphorde 6y ago

Yes, the far left is pushing for a centralized web. One where all websites are controlled, censored, and belong to a government. To quote one in the USA. "The right of the worker to have access to information is one of the most important of human rights. All information and technology should be held by the state whereas the state should proffer all information to all workers." Well, we know how that works out. The person controlling the information is in control.