5 ms·

News report: https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6215946537001 https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6215946537001

ardy42 6y ago
> “Along with the personal identifying details of 1.95 million communist party members, mostly from Shanghai, there are also the details of 79,000 communist party branches, many of them inside companies”. According to Wikipedia, there are 91 million members, so this isn't a complete list. I wonder what the source database was for.
- sjwright 6y ago
  I'd imagine that a large number of those 91 million are people who hold membership for the purpose of group identification and virtue signalling, not because they have a specific role in a hierarchy.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > I'd imagine that a large number of those 91 million are people who hold membership for the purpose of group identification and virtue signalling, not because they have a specific role in a hierarchy. You're correct that most party members have "have [no] specific role in a hierarchy," but "group identification and virtue signalling," seriously? That feels like an inappropriate transfer of some stereotypes of the English-speaking left to the CCP. My understanding is that most people who join do so because being a member offers small privileges, like preferences in hiring.
    - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
      > "group identification and virtue signalling," seriously? That feels like an inappropriate transfer of some stereotypes of the English-speaking left to the CCP. Why do you feel it is inappropriate? Human nature is human nature, its not as though Chinese are a sub-species of humans that has different psychology than American sub-species. People signaling values and identifying with groups is human nature. > My understanding is that most people who join do so because being a member offers small privileges, like preferences in hiring. Yes there are benefits to being in a group and sharing values with those in power.
      - ardy42 6y ago
        > Why do you feel it is inappropriate? Because my understanding is that most Chinese people do not consider the CCP to be virtuous nor do they "identify" with it. That's not to say they're dissidents, but more semi-deliberately indifferent and have knowledge of and experience with government corruption. Even people who work for the party are often just going through the motions.
        chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        Thanks for the reply. > Because my understanding is that most Chinese people do not consider the CCP to be virtuous nor do they "identify" with it. Perhaps its not meant to signal virtue to the majority but instead to the decision makers. Perhaps the majority do not identify as a member but the members do. > Even people who work for the party are often just going through the motions. That would be covered by signaling virtue.
        ardy42 6y ago
        > Perhaps its not meant to signal virtue to the majority but instead to the decision makers. Perhaps the majority do not identify as a member but the members do. That's not "virtue signalling." If everyone involved in the interaction is cynical about the organization, no virtue is being signaled. The "decision makers" most of all know the true nature of the party. I think the word you're really looking for is just "signalling" or at least a different kind of signaling than "virtue signalling." You're really torturing that term into meaninglessness here. "Virtue signalling" really only applies to situations where at least some people genuinely think they're signalling virtue or that others would actually perceive it that way. One end or the other can be cynical, but not both.
        chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        > That's not "virtue signalling." If everyone involved in the interaction is cynical about the organization, no virtue is being signaled. The "decision makers" most of all know the true nature of the party. Its naive to assume that none of them consider the true nature of the party to be what constitutes "virtuous." > I think the word you're really looking for is just "signalling" or at least a different kind of signaling than "virtue signalling." You're really torturing that term into meaninglessness here. Sure. > "Virtue signalling" really only applies to situations where at least some people genuinely think they're signalling virtue or that others would actually perceive it that way. One end or the other can be cynical, but not both. Value signaling is perhaps a more value-neutral way of expressing the same sentiment.
lysp 6y ago
Sky News Australia is the equivalent of Fox News in the US. I wouldn't take anything said on there as accurate or fact-checked.
- throwawawawaway 6y ago
  Not to agree or disagree on Sky News Australia. Just on the dataset itself, by searching for my previous company I found many people I know of, and I can at least say that the 'hometown', 'organization' and 'education' information is accurate for a few I checked.
- Yetanfou 6y ago
  So? Thu Guardian is the equivalent of the New York Times of the Washington Post in the USA, that does not mean you can't believe anything they print. News sources have biases, as long as you know those biases and (very important) know and acknowledge your own bias you can and should use those sources to get an idea of what the news really is. This is why I do not use a single source, nor a single aggregator as a news source but instead look at sources ranging from the Guardian to the Wall Street Journal as well as a bevy of "alternative" news sources. The 'net makes this possible, use the possibility. Just squawking about the bias of sources which do not correspond with your own bias is a part of the problem, not a part of the solution. By the way, it is disheartening to see the growth in the number of throw-away accounts used in discussions like these. Stand up for your opinions, dare to voice them, don't hide for the cancel mob. Use your real account even if - or maybe especially if - you expect the mob to pounce. It is only when "established" users show they are not afraid to speak up that the mob can be beaten.
- bJGVygG7MQVF8c 6y ago
  This is a pretty naive way to assess new information, for the record.
dang 6y ago
We changed the url from https://gitlab.com/shanghai-ccp-member-db/shanghai-ccp-member-db https://gitlab.com/shanghai-ccp-member-db/shanghai-ccp-membe... to that. Thanks!
- richiaruhito 6y ago
  to what?
- spamaccnt 6y ago
  That link is down. Does anyone else have a link to it?
- edsteppy33 6y ago
  to what my dude? is this data still accessible or is it being systematically wiped?
  - dang 6y ago
    To https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6215946537001 https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6215946537001, which was the URL in the comment I was replying to (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25410636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25410636). I don't usually repeat the URL when I say such things because (a) it's right in the parent comment, and (b) once we change it, it's linked at the top of the thread too. I don't know anything about that data, sorry. Just the janitor.
  - loulou7 6y ago
    no data available and this "news" is from 2016

> “Along with the personal identifying details of 1.95 million communist party members, mostly from Shanghai, there are also the details of 79,000 communist party branches, many of them inside companies”. According to Wikipedia, there are 91 million members, so this isn't a complete list. I wonder what the source database was for.

sjwright 6y ago
I'd imagine that a large number of those 91 million are people who hold membership for the purpose of group identification and virtue signalling, not because they have a specific role in a hierarchy.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > I'd imagine that a large number of those 91 million are people who hold membership for the purpose of group identification and virtue signalling, not because they have a specific role in a hierarchy. You're correct that most party members have "have [no] specific role in a hierarchy," but "group identification and virtue signalling," seriously? That feels like an inappropriate transfer of some stereotypes of the English-speaking left to the CCP. My understanding is that most people who join do so because being a member offers small privileges, like preferences in hiring.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    > "group identification and virtue signalling," seriously? That feels like an inappropriate transfer of some stereotypes of the English-speaking left to the CCP. Why do you feel it is inappropriate? Human nature is human nature, its not as though Chinese are a sub-species of humans that has different psychology than American sub-species. People signaling values and identifying with groups is human nature. > My understanding is that most people who join do so because being a member offers small privileges, like preferences in hiring. Yes there are benefits to being in a group and sharing values with those in power.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > Why do you feel it is inappropriate? Because my understanding is that most Chinese people do not consider the CCP to be virtuous nor do they "identify" with it. That's not to say they're dissidents, but more semi-deliberately indifferent and have knowledge of and experience with government corruption. Even people who work for the party are often just going through the motions.
      - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        Thanks for the reply. > Because my understanding is that most Chinese people do not consider the CCP to be virtuous nor do they "identify" with it. Perhaps its not meant to signal virtue to the majority but instead to the decision makers. Perhaps the majority do not identify as a member but the members do. > Even people who work for the party are often just going through the motions. That would be covered by signaling virtue.
        ardy42 6y ago
        > Perhaps its not meant to signal virtue to the majority but instead to the decision makers. Perhaps the majority do not identify as a member but the members do. That's not "virtue signalling." If everyone involved in the interaction is cynical about the organization, no virtue is being signaled. The "decision makers" most of all know the true nature of the party. I think the word you're really looking for is just "signalling" or at least a different kind of signaling than "virtue signalling." You're really torturing that term into meaninglessness here. "Virtue signalling" really only applies to situations where at least some people genuinely think they're signalling virtue or that others would actually perceive it that way. One end or the other can be cynical, but not both.
        chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        > That's not "virtue signalling." If everyone involved in the interaction is cynical about the organization, no virtue is being signaled. The "decision makers" most of all know the true nature of the party. Its naive to assume that none of them consider the true nature of the party to be what constitutes "virtuous." > I think the word you're really looking for is just "signalling" or at least a different kind of signaling than "virtue signalling." You're really torturing that term into meaninglessness here. Sure. > "Virtue signalling" really only applies to situations where at least some people genuinely think they're signalling virtue or that others would actually perceive it that way. One end or the other can be cynical, but not both. Value signaling is perhaps a more value-neutral way of expressing the same sentiment.

lysp 6y ago

Sky News Australia is the equivalent of Fox News in the US. I wouldn't take anything said on there as accurate or fact-checked.

throwawawawaway 6y ago
Not to agree or disagree on Sky News Australia. Just on the dataset itself, by searching for my previous company I found many people I know of, and I can at least say that the 'hometown', 'organization' and 'education' information is accurate for a few I checked.
Yetanfou 6y ago
So? Thu Guardian is the equivalent of the New York Times of the Washington Post in the USA, that does not mean you can't believe anything they print. News sources have biases, as long as you know those biases and (very important) know and acknowledge your own bias you can and should use those sources to get an idea of what the news really is. This is why I do not use a single source, nor a single aggregator as a news source but instead look at sources ranging from the Guardian to the Wall Street Journal as well as a bevy of "alternative" news sources. The 'net makes this possible, use the possibility. Just squawking about the bias of sources which do not correspond with your own bias is a part of the problem, not a part of the solution. By the way, it is disheartening to see the growth in the number of throw-away accounts used in discussions like these. Stand up for your opinions, dare to voice them, don't hide for the cancel mob. Use your real account even if - or maybe especially if - you expect the mob to pounce. It is only when "established" users show they are not afraid to speak up that the mob can be beaten.
bJGVygG7MQVF8c 6y ago
This is a pretty naive way to assess new information, for the record.

dang 6y ago

We changed the url from https://gitlab.com/shanghai-ccp-member-db/shanghai-ccp-member-db https://gitlab.com/shanghai-ccp-member-db/shanghai-ccp-membe... to that. Thanks!

richiaruhito 6y ago
to what?
spamaccnt 6y ago
That link is down. Does anyone else have a link to it?
edsteppy33 6y ago
to what my dude? is this data still accessible or is it being systematically wiped?
- dang 6y ago
  To https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6215946537001 https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6215946537001, which was the URL in the comment I was replying to (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25410636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25410636). I don't usually repeat the URL when I say such things because (a) it's right in the parent comment, and (b) once we change it, it's linked at the top of the thread too. I don't know anything about that data, sorry. Just the janitor.
- loulou7 6y ago
  no data available and this "news" is from 2016