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Freedom has a fundamental asymmetry: it's much easier to give it up than to get it back. Imagine a society where it's possible to sell yourself into slavery --

Freedom has a fundamental asymmetry: it's much easier to give it up than to get it back. Imagine a society where it's possible to sell yourself into slavery -- you start out free, but in a moment of desperation you lose it forever. Enemies of a free state use the state's freedom against it by exploiting this asymmetry. A moment of naivety by a voter or someone in power, or a traitor/spy, can dramatically undermine freedom. The only solution is vigilence, which is hard to keep up forever. The Bill of Rights helps, but at some point we need to reject the politicians that are too naive to defend freedom. EDIT: The socialist movement in the U.S. is of grave concern. Especially the Bernie Sanders brand, where he's a nice guy but somehow can't even recognize a failing socialist state a few years before it fails (Venezuela).

afuchs 6y ago
This argument is similar to Karl Popper's Paradox of Tolerance [1], where authoritarians can use freedoms given to them by a society to remove those freedoms from others. However, the statement insisting that Bernie Sanders will somehow turn the USA into Venezuela sounds more like dogmatic rhetoric more than something that is based on concrete fact. Similar policies to those proposed in America by progressive Democrats, which the American Republican party frequently refers to as being socialist, have been implemented in some countries (see the Nordic Model [2]) without it turning into a disaster. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
- chmod600 6y ago
  If socialist policies are going to be implemented successfully in the U.S., they need to be implemented by people who can tell the difference between Denmark and Venezuela. Sen. Sanders, while otherwise seemingly intelligent, cannot. https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-gaps-disparities-that-threaten-america https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-...
nerdponx 6y ago
Is the idea that all people should have access to healthcare and education really "of grave concern"?
- chmod600 6y ago
  The problem is not the healthcare, but the power that the government is asking for, and the foolishness in thinking that the power grab will stop at some reasonable point. If Vermont decided to have socialized medicine, I don't really care. But implementing it across the entire US is not going to work out well. I'm not a fan of socialized medicine, but let's say you want to do it. The first thing to do if you want it to be successful is start with a medium-small state, and then take over a part of the system (e.g. emergency care). Show us all how great that is, and slowly expand. Administrators would gain experience, mistakes would be fixable, hard social questions get answered, etc., and if everything goes well maybe the whole country moves over. A big bill for the whole country from someone who thought things in Venezuela were just peachy in 2011 is not a path for success.
  - nerdponx 6y ago
    For one thing, Sanders was not proposing a fully government-run healthcare system. Realistic options would be "a good-quality public option available at the federal level", or "single payer" healthcare where the government becomes the single main insurer, at least for basic preventative care and emergencies, or some other policy that ensures there is a "social safety net" in place that includes access to modern healthcare. Sanders misjudgment about Venezuela is a valid criticism, but let's stop with the Red Scare rhetoric about socializing things. If we were going to socialize something, we would be talking about directly worker-owned enterprises. Ironically, that might actually be much better than just having the government run everything. Also, you have deluded yourself if somehow you don't already think the US government is an abusive beast that exists in large part to create and maintain power for itself. Is healthcare really the straw that broke the camel's back? Is the government really that much worse than a private corporation that has almost no exposure to market forces? I can't exactly vote for the CEO of Aetna. I think many people would be open to something other than "medicare for all", but so far that is the only serious public proposal that achieves the goal of ensuring access to modern, humane healthcare for all Americans.

afuchs 6y ago

This argument is similar to Karl Popper's Paradox of Tolerance [1], where authoritarians can use freedoms given to them by a society to remove those freedoms from others. However, the statement insisting that Bernie Sanders will somehow turn the USA into Venezuela sounds more like dogmatic rhetoric more than something that is based on concrete fact. Similar policies to those proposed in America by progressive Democrats, which the American Republican party frequently refers to as being socialist, have been implemented in some countries (see the Nordic Model [2]) without it turning into a disaster. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

chmod600 6y ago
If socialist policies are going to be implemented successfully in the U.S., they need to be implemented by people who can tell the difference between Denmark and Venezuela. Sen. Sanders, while otherwise seemingly intelligent, cannot. https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-gaps-disparities-that-threaten-america https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-...

nerdponx 6y ago

Is the idea that all people should have access to healthcare and education really "of grave concern"?

chmod600 6y ago
The problem is not the healthcare, but the power that the government is asking for, and the foolishness in thinking that the power grab will stop at some reasonable point. If Vermont decided to have socialized medicine, I don't really care. But implementing it across the entire US is not going to work out well. I'm not a fan of socialized medicine, but let's say you want to do it. The first thing to do if you want it to be successful is start with a medium-small state, and then take over a part of the system (e.g. emergency care). Show us all how great that is, and slowly expand. Administrators would gain experience, mistakes would be fixable, hard social questions get answered, etc., and if everything goes well maybe the whole country moves over. A big bill for the whole country from someone who thought things in Venezuela were just peachy in 2011 is not a path for success.
- nerdponx 6y ago
  For one thing, Sanders was not proposing a fully government-run healthcare system. Realistic options would be "a good-quality public option available at the federal level", or "single payer" healthcare where the government becomes the single main insurer, at least for basic preventative care and emergencies, or some other policy that ensures there is a "social safety net" in place that includes access to modern healthcare. Sanders misjudgment about Venezuela is a valid criticism, but let's stop with the Red Scare rhetoric about socializing things. If we were going to socialize something, we would be talking about directly worker-owned enterprises. Ironically, that might actually be much better than just having the government run everything. Also, you have deluded yourself if somehow you don't already think the US government is an abusive beast that exists in large part to create and maintain power for itself. Is healthcare really the straw that broke the camel's back? Is the government really that much worse than a private corporation that has almost no exposure to market forces? I can't exactly vote for the CEO of Aetna. I think many people would be open to something other than "medicare for all", but so far that is the only serious public proposal that achieves the goal of ensuring access to modern, humane healthcare for all Americans.