2 ms·

https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/unsigned.html https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/unsigned.html

by dleslie 6y ago

fastball 6y ago
Yes, untrusted software has warnings now, but can still be run. Where is MacOS falling down for general computing?
- dleslie 6y ago
  Not just warnings; user-hostile popups that make it unclear whether such apps can be run at all. And because Apple users have given the keys to their hardware to someone else, they get things like this happening: https://techcrunch.com/2020/11/12/macos-apps-wont-launch/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/11/12/macos-apps-wont-launch/ It will only get worse; Apple has little incentive to support general computing over a walled garden where they get a cut of every software purchase.
  - alwillis 6y ago
    It will only get worse; Apple has little incentive to support general computing over a walled garden where they get a cut of every software purchase. About 92% of all iOS apps on the App Store are free; pretty sure the numbers for macOS are similar: https://www.statista.com/statistics/263797/number-of-applications-for-mobile-phones/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263797/number-of-applica...
    - dleslie 6y ago
      Free-as-in-beer is not the sort of free that concerns me. Moreover, publishing free-beer apps isn't free.
  - alwillis 6y ago
    This issue was due to Apple's system for checking for expired developer certificates and for malware. Their OCSP server failed, among other things, which is why some apps couldn't launch. I use mostly free/open source software for web development on macOS; the outage didn't affect me at all. Details on what happened: https://eclecticlight.co/2020/11/16/checks-on-executable-code-in-catalina-and-big-sur-a-first-draft/ https://eclecticlight.co/2020/11/16/checks-on-executable-cod...
    - dleslie 6y ago
      I know why it failed, and I also know that such a calamity would not befall me thanks to my choice of software. My mac-using coworkers were affected and lost most of a day's productivity. They'll lose more in the future.
      - fastball 6y ago
        I use a mac and didn't lose any productivity to this so...
        dleslie 6y ago
        You're experiencing survivorship bias.
        fastball 6y ago
        No, I'm pointing out that anecdata isn't very useful.
        dleslie 6y ago
        Your anecdotal survivorship story was, indeed, rather unhelpful when I had previously linked news articles discussing the widespread loss of productivity associated with this concern.
  - fastball 6y ago
    Apple has a great incentive to continue allowing general computing: a significant portion of their users will stop buying their computers if they do this. Almost every developer I know will stop using macs if macs start actually preventing them from running whatever software they want.
    - dleslie 6y ago
      I stopped buying Apple products for this reason, and I know that I'm not alone. The few doors that remain open will close; Mac will move to a closed market before long unless regulators prevent it, or that OS is retired entirely.
      - fastball 6y ago
        You're... supporting my point? The more closed it gets, the more customers they will lose. Right now macs aren't closed at all, so honestly the customers they've lost so far (yourself included) are... faint-of-heart? Excessively sensitive? Not sure what the best way to phrase this is. You've effectively stopped buying macs for something that could happen, not something that has actually happened. I would find it incredibly surprising if you install enough unsigned GUI apps for that whole warning + have-to-open-it-with-right-clicking thing to be a dealbreaker for you on its own. And if it was, they could've lost you at any time because that seems like incredibly fickle consumer behavior. An actual closing of the platform though will be a watershed moment.
        dleslie 6y ago
        Yes, I'm agreeing that Apple will/is driving away discriminating customers. Apple is well aware that most of its recent customer growth, and almost all its future customer growth, is in iOS and similar walled gardens. The Mac users are proving to happily accept greater restrictions on ability so long as their preferred tools continue to work. You state as much yourself: running unsigned software is surprising to you; as though that should be considered abnormal behaviour. Consumers of Mac products will happily accept greater restrictions if they can be convinced it brings quality; whether or not it is successful in doing so.

https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/unsigned.html https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/unsigned.html

fastball 6y ago

Yes, untrusted software has warnings now, but can still be run. Where is MacOS falling down for general computing?

dleslie 6y ago
Not just warnings; user-hostile popups that make it unclear whether such apps can be run at all. And because Apple users have given the keys to their hardware to someone else, they get things like this happening: https://techcrunch.com/2020/11/12/macos-apps-wont-launch/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/11/12/macos-apps-wont-launch/ It will only get worse; Apple has little incentive to support general computing over a walled garden where they get a cut of every software purchase.
- alwillis 6y ago
  It will only get worse; Apple has little incentive to support general computing over a walled garden where they get a cut of every software purchase. About 92% of all iOS apps on the App Store are free; pretty sure the numbers for macOS are similar: https://www.statista.com/statistics/263797/number-of-applications-for-mobile-phones/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263797/number-of-applica...
  - dleslie 6y ago
    Free-as-in-beer is not the sort of free that concerns me. Moreover, publishing free-beer apps isn't free.
- alwillis 6y ago
  This issue was due to Apple's system for checking for expired developer certificates and for malware. Their OCSP server failed, among other things, which is why some apps couldn't launch. I use mostly free/open source software for web development on macOS; the outage didn't affect me at all. Details on what happened: https://eclecticlight.co/2020/11/16/checks-on-executable-code-in-catalina-and-big-sur-a-first-draft/ https://eclecticlight.co/2020/11/16/checks-on-executable-cod...
  - dleslie 6y ago
    I know why it failed, and I also know that such a calamity would not befall me thanks to my choice of software. My mac-using coworkers were affected and lost most of a day's productivity. They'll lose more in the future.
    - fastball 6y ago
      I use a mac and didn't lose any productivity to this so...
      - dleslie 6y ago
        You're experiencing survivorship bias.
        fastball 6y ago
        No, I'm pointing out that anecdata isn't very useful.
        dleslie 6y ago
        Your anecdotal survivorship story was, indeed, rather unhelpful when I had previously linked news articles discussing the widespread loss of productivity associated with this concern.
- fastball 6y ago
  Apple has a great incentive to continue allowing general computing: a significant portion of their users will stop buying their computers if they do this. Almost every developer I know will stop using macs if macs start actually preventing them from running whatever software they want.
  - dleslie 6y ago
    I stopped buying Apple products for this reason, and I know that I'm not alone. The few doors that remain open will close; Mac will move to a closed market before long unless regulators prevent it, or that OS is retired entirely.
    - fastball 6y ago
      You're... supporting my point? The more closed it gets, the more customers they will lose. Right now macs aren't closed at all, so honestly the customers they've lost so far (yourself included) are... faint-of-heart? Excessively sensitive? Not sure what the best way to phrase this is. You've effectively stopped buying macs for something that could happen, not something that has actually happened. I would find it incredibly surprising if you install enough unsigned GUI apps for that whole warning + have-to-open-it-with-right-clicking thing to be a dealbreaker for you on its own. And if it was, they could've lost you at any time because that seems like incredibly fickle consumer behavior. An actual closing of the platform though will be a watershed moment.
      - dleslie 6y ago
        Yes, I'm agreeing that Apple will/is driving away discriminating customers. Apple is well aware that most of its recent customer growth, and almost all its future customer growth, is in iOS and similar walled gardens. The Mac users are proving to happily accept greater restrictions on ability so long as their preferred tools continue to work. You state as much yourself: running unsigned software is surprising to you; as though that should be considered abnormal behaviour. Consumers of Mac products will happily accept greater restrictions if they can be convinced it brings quality; whether or not it is successful in doing so.