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‘Nation state’ is such a stupid term for them to use as two of the usual suspects, Iran and Russia, are not nation states but rather multiethnic states. If they
by dan-robertson 6y ago
‘Nation state’ is such a stupid term for them to use as two of the usual suspects, Iran and Russia, are not nation states but rather multiethnic states. If they don’t have a clue who it is, it seems unlikely they would rule out these two states specifically and do so in this subtle way.
For some reason it is very common amongst people who are interested in cybersecurity (or national security in the US).
- xapata 6y agoRussia may not be currently, but is aspirationally a nation-state.
- enkid 6y agoNation-state prevents confusing with lower level states. State is the more appropriate term, but it would cause a lot of confusion in the US.
- jfk13 6y agoCould just use "country".
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- jay_kyburz 6y agoNation State suggests the nations government. If you just say country it might suggest organized crime or other randos from that country.
- bigbubba 6y ago'Foreign government.'
- Spooky23 6y agoAlso a problem with many places. Think about Pakistan, where the military is not the government per se, but has the resources. “Nation state adversary” says something without saying it.
- bigbubba 6y ago> Pakistan, where the military is not the government per se, A distinction without a difference? I don't know a whole lot about Pakistan, but that's the way it seems to me.
- Spooky23 6y agoIt doesn’t matter if you or I don’t see that distinction, but the US government needs to make whatever distinction it chose from a policy perspective.
- axlee 6y agoProblem is that a country can be sovereign or part of a larger state. I think sovereign state is the correct wording to use in that case.
- thomascgalvin 6y agoComptia's Security+ exam refers to countries as "nation states" when it talks about government entities targeting businesses or other governments, and that nomenclature has become commonplace. Sec+ is also a requirement for a lot of government related computer work, so it's not surprising that the guy they interviewed used the term.
- oceanplexian 6y agoJust because an attack originated in a certain place does not mean it was supported by a nation state. For some reason it seems like a large number of security folks don’t understand this. I know lots of intelligent Russian engineers who could easily break into US corporate or government systems or orchestrate a DDoS attack. And if they chose to do so there would be zero legal consequences since they live in Russia and are Russian citizens. Doesn’t mean they are on Putin’s payroll.
- jay_kyburz 6y agoYes, I don't understand why you would assume government backing, but you don't know which government. If you don't know who it is, it could be anybody. I think people use Nation-State to suggest that they are not so incompetent that some random hacker could get access.
- delecti 6y agoI had to look up the difference, and I don't think that distinction is something most people are aware of. I've only ever known "nation state" to mean "country", and suspect I'm in the majority. I don't think most people use that term intentionally, because few countries would qualify. That list gets even shorter when you limit it to countries that might be antagonistic to the US, and even shorter when you get to those that are threats. In addition to your two examples, China certainly doesn't qualify either, which basically just leaves North Korea.
- dionian 6y agoNation-state: a sovereign state whose citizens or subjects are relatively homogeneous in factors such as language or common descent.
- jjeaff 6y agoYa, I think I consume far beyond the average for political news and had never heard of that distinction until now. I just always equated nation-state to country.
- chrisseaton 6y agoWhy do you think people said 'nation-state' if you thought it meant the same as the shorter and simpler word 'country'?
- dnhz 6y agoTo sound geopolitically sophisticated. To pretend at the language of statecraft.
- delecti 6y agoI always assumed it was a way to sidestep discussing whether certain contested territories were legitimately "countries" in their own right. By which I mean places like Palestine, Taiwan, and the way North and South Korea each kinda claim the other as part of their territory.
- 6y ago
- markdown 6y ago> Iran and Russia Or Israel. Israel is the nation state that has subverted the US govt more than any other.
- dan-robertson 6y agoYeah but Israel isn’t in the intersection of usual subjects and countries that aren’t nation states.
- jraby3 6y agoI seriously doubt that. But it’s cool to bash Israel online so you’ll probably get upvoted.
- Spooky23 6y agoIn this context, nation-state means “people with the authority and budget to do stuff like this”. Its used because it makes the victim seem less incompetent, and doesn’t misidentify the attacker, doubling the ownage.
- vaxman 6y agoMaybe they suspect Californians? https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/gavin-newsom-declares-california-a-nation-state-1.1419811 https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/gavin-newsom-declares-california...
- reaperducer 6y ago"Nation state" was a standard term in school going all the way back to fifth-grade Social Studies class.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- azernik 6y agoThis is a US-vs-everyone-else terminology difference. In most of the world "state" refers to a sovereign entity, "nation" refers to an ethnic group, and "nation-state" is a state identified with an ethnic nation. But all of that terminology solidified in the 19th century, so outside of academic political science the US uses "state" to refer to individual entities in a federation (e.g. translating German "Bundesland" as "state"), "nation" to refer to not-necessarily-ethnic bodies politick, and "nation-state" to specify "what we call a nation, what the Old World calls a state". Which of course leads to a lot of confusion about the connotations of "EU member state", which in European discourse implies real sovereignty, but in US discourse implies a federalist Europe.