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Being a cyclist and a driver, I see sharrows as a middle finger to cyclists. They are worse than nothing as they cause confusion, which then leads animosity bet

Being a cyclist and a driver, I see sharrows as a middle finger to cyclists. They are worse than nothing as they cause confusion, which then leads animosity between drivers and cyclists. I’m all about incremental measures to test theories. This is not one of the situations that warrants that approach. If a city wants to test out increasing bicycle infrastructure, they unfortunately have to build bicycle infrastructure.

corytheboyd 6y ago
I’m torn, but I think I lean more towards agreeing with you that we just have to build the infrastructure. I don’t think sharrows do nothing, that feels a bit hyperbolic. If a city were to build infrastructure for example, starting with sharrows seems fairly logical to get everyone used to the upcoming change.
- teucris 6y ago
  Maybe it depends on the city and its situation. I’m in Seattle, and I feel like the areas with sharrows are consistently the streets where I am (as a commuting cyclist) tailgated by cars or finding myself (as a errand-running motorist) unable to safely pass a cyclist for a very, very long time. And those sharrow streets are often an inefficient route for cyclists with no clear indication for how the route would be improved.
  - c22 6y ago
    At least those sharrows are better than the "bike lanes" they paint into the pothole and garbage strewn shoulder which are frequently occupied by illegally parked vehicles, fallen branches, and delivery trucks.
    - rossjudson 6y ago
      On the second last stretch of road before my home we have the "bike lane at the side of the road". On garbage day you'll find some of the homeowners view it as "garbage lane". Not that many, though...I think some of my fellow cyclists "relocate" garbage cans in the bike lane to the other side of the road, or well down it. There are a few houses where the homeowners really don't have that many options (bottom of a steep driveway) and those ones at least make an effort to minimally encroach. Illegally parked vehicles don't last long around here ;)
  - corytheboyd 6y ago
    For context my experience comes from San Francisco. There are definitely streets exactly like what you mentioned, which can be frustrating but the ones I am thinking of are generally touristy anyway (Polk comes to mind as I spent a lot of time around there) I just can’t see how some paint on the road makes it actively WORSE, the cars and bikes are still there in the same volume as before. Cars and bikes just don’t belong in the same infrastructure, it’s ridiculous to expect it to work long term. People in this thread mentioning bike lines in the middle of the road scares the shit out of me, that cannot where bicycle infrastructure ends up
  - rossjudson 6y ago
    I like the green-painted bike lanes out of the non-physically separated mechanisms. Over in Kirkland we have some reasonably good bike lanes (some green, some not). Dooring is still a highly rational fear, though, and when I'm going past cars that are parked I slow down quite a bit and I presume that pretty much any car might contain a driver that's opening a door without looking. Hugging the left side of the bike lane is also helpful. The biggest lesson I had in my first season of commuting to work was "TRUST NO-ONE". Do not trust cars to do what they are supposed to do under any circumstances. Do not assume that eye contact with drivers will affect their behavior. Do not assume that slow car speeds are safe speeds. Any given car can turn in front of you at any time, or flip open a door on any side. I once had the same guy almost get me twice in a single commute. He didn't mean to do it...just a very distracted driver.
    - corytheboyd 6y ago
      Huge +1 to trusting no one as a cyclist. Another thing I have learned is to be EXTRA cautious around slow cars. It’s ALWAYS the slow car that is about to do something erratic. Makes sense if you think about it, as a driver you usually slow down to give yourself time to find that parking spot, check if you should turn here, etc.
      - dsego 6y ago
        In my experience drivers also often times just don't see you (something about saccades) or even if they do, it doesn't register. Or they misjudge you speed, they don't expect you going 25-30kph. An accident that happened to me not long ago was a driver failing to yield and pulling in front me, causing me to slam the brakes and lose traction, skidding and scraping the asphalt. Luckily it was just road rash and bruises (and I wasn't wearing my clip-less shoes - only flats from now on for me).
        brewdad 6y ago
        The "safety" feature I hate most on my wife's car is the auto-tinting side mirrors. They are amazing at preventing being blinded by drivers with improperly installed LED headlights but they make it almost impossible to see a cyclist at night.
  - joveian 6y ago
    I think they often use them when they aren't willing to do anything useful, as a "we haven't entirely forgotten that bikes exist, we just don't want to actually make things safer" measure (or, more cynically, as a "here we did something now go away" measure). Here in Portland (at least inner Portland) I think they have mostly repurposed them as a bike route marker, where bike route means more or less "a side street that isn't interrupted more frequently than nearby streets" (this being Portland, that is most side streets so there are lots of them all over the place). More heavily trafficed streets are more likely to have bike lanes and green stripes. I think sharrows are resonable as a "this street isn't likely to end abruptly in two blocks" marker, although that is quite a bit different than the initial usage. The city also somtimes installs barriers that allow bike traffic to pass but not car traffic in a few strategic places if a side street is too appealing to cars as an alternative route.
- adamcstephens 6y ago
  https://smartcdn.prod.postmedia.digital/montrealgazette/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/vancouver-bike-guidelines-all-ages-abilities.png?quality=90&strip=all&w=576&type=webp https://smartcdn.prod.postmedia.digital/montrealgazette/wp-c...
- caturopath 6y ago
  I don't know what the data say, but I wouldn't be surprised of they do nothing. I don't understand what change the sharrow gets people ready for. It just states a fact that was always true (there might be bikes here). Maybe it makes it front of mind? When I'm biking, I interpret a lot of sharrows as "bikes, get your butt to this specific location", which can make me more afraid of other drivers if I use the road in another way that might come more naturally to me.
mistahchris 6y ago
Agreed. In my experience bike commuting on a road with "sharrows" provoked a lot of anger from drivers. I don't fully avoid them because I'm a fairly aggressive city cyclist, but I don't prefer them and most of the people that I have ridden with avoid them completely.
matsemann 6y ago
In Norway we have this failed campaign for bicycle safety. On some roads there are big signs with "share the road" and the picture of a cyclist looking behind as he's overtaken by a car [0]. The intention was to "humanize" the cyclist and make cars behave, but instead the cars see the sign as "cyclists should look behind and let us pass!" or "he should cycle on the curb!" and instead increase the rage they feel when getting slowed down.. [0]: https://imgur.com/a/KSLAFzl https://imgur.com/a/KSLAFzl
- chrisballinger 6y ago
  I would love to see all “Share the Road” signs replaced with “Bicycles May Use Full Lane” [1] signs. This is the law in California but many motorists are unaware, or don’t care. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycles_May_Use_Full_Lane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycles_May_Use_Full_Lane
  - toxik 6y ago
    This makes it seem like it would be some kind of exception. Bikes can ALWAYS use the full lane!
    - mumblemumble 6y ago
      Perhaps put it on billboards so that it's clear that it applies to all roads, not just that one road. I'd also suggest putting it on driving tests, but I've never taken a state driving test where they go through and make sure you understand which questions you got wrong.
  - gumby 6y ago
    I agree. Though my dad thinks you only have to slow for pedestrians where there is a posted sign reminding you of that fact. So you can't win. ("Can't win" doesn't mean you shouldn't try.)
    - davchana 6y ago
      Agree, my personal experience: walking from Walmart parking lot to walmart doors, crossing the hatched pattern section of asphalt exactly in front of entrance, half of the drivers do not stop even after looking at me. Sunny day, perfect visibility. Might be the reason that its a majority white republican county with pickup trucks.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> Being a cyclist and a driver, I see sharrows as a middle finger to cyclists. Any kind of solution that involves signage only is a middle finger to cyclists. I live in a very cycling friendly city, bike friendly infrastructure is the only thing that makes a difference. Even here where cyclists are super common, there is a pretty big portion of the population who treat cyclists as little more than road debris.
acwan93 6y ago
I’m going to call it as it is: sharrows are the answers from cities that simply don’t care about cyclists but want to “show they are doing something” to silence the complaints from what they think are niche groups. My hometown (and where I work now) is in an LA suburb and it and two adjacent cities recently implemented their “master plan”, and what they ended up doing was making arterial roads with heavy auto traffic traveling at 45-50mph into Class III bike paths. How do you expect a cyclist to “share the road” with cars going 3-4x their speed, or encourage novice cyclists? I think they just added sharrows to the busiest roads in the city and called it a day. The planners were clearly not cyclists, or more realistically with one of the cities I sent a complaint to, had their hands tied and couldn’t devise any other way to get cyclists safely from one side of the city to another due to the car-heavy infrastructure the city already had. “Bicycle boulevards” like I saw while living in Berkeley and Cupertino where there were literally roadblocks, bollards, and speed bumps installed would be laughed out here. One city planner told me that city council just didn’t see it as a priority, and that the councilmen just thought cycling was a “recreational activity” and didn’t see it as a serious commuter activity even though the planner himself was a bike commuter. Meanwhile car traffic is getting progressively worse and traffic lights still aren’t timed properly.

corytheboyd 6y ago

I’m torn, but I think I lean more towards agreeing with you that we just have to build the infrastructure. I don’t think sharrows do nothing, that feels a bit hyperbolic. If a city were to build infrastructure for example, starting with sharrows seems fairly logical to get everyone used to the upcoming change.

teucris 6y ago
Maybe it depends on the city and its situation. I’m in Seattle, and I feel like the areas with sharrows are consistently the streets where I am (as a commuting cyclist) tailgated by cars or finding myself (as a errand-running motorist) unable to safely pass a cyclist for a very, very long time. And those sharrow streets are often an inefficient route for cyclists with no clear indication for how the route would be improved.
- c22 6y ago
  At least those sharrows are better than the "bike lanes" they paint into the pothole and garbage strewn shoulder which are frequently occupied by illegally parked vehicles, fallen branches, and delivery trucks.
  - rossjudson 6y ago
    On the second last stretch of road before my home we have the "bike lane at the side of the road". On garbage day you'll find some of the homeowners view it as "garbage lane". Not that many, though...I think some of my fellow cyclists "relocate" garbage cans in the bike lane to the other side of the road, or well down it. There are a few houses where the homeowners really don't have that many options (bottom of a steep driveway) and those ones at least make an effort to minimally encroach. Illegally parked vehicles don't last long around here ;)
- corytheboyd 6y ago
  For context my experience comes from San Francisco. There are definitely streets exactly like what you mentioned, which can be frustrating but the ones I am thinking of are generally touristy anyway (Polk comes to mind as I spent a lot of time around there) I just can’t see how some paint on the road makes it actively WORSE, the cars and bikes are still there in the same volume as before. Cars and bikes just don’t belong in the same infrastructure, it’s ridiculous to expect it to work long term. People in this thread mentioning bike lines in the middle of the road scares the shit out of me, that cannot where bicycle infrastructure ends up
- rossjudson 6y ago
  I like the green-painted bike lanes out of the non-physically separated mechanisms. Over in Kirkland we have some reasonably good bike lanes (some green, some not). Dooring is still a highly rational fear, though, and when I'm going past cars that are parked I slow down quite a bit and I presume that pretty much any car might contain a driver that's opening a door without looking. Hugging the left side of the bike lane is also helpful. The biggest lesson I had in my first season of commuting to work was "TRUST NO-ONE". Do not trust cars to do what they are supposed to do under any circumstances. Do not assume that eye contact with drivers will affect their behavior. Do not assume that slow car speeds are safe speeds. Any given car can turn in front of you at any time, or flip open a door on any side. I once had the same guy almost get me twice in a single commute. He didn't mean to do it...just a very distracted driver.
  - corytheboyd 6y ago
    Huge +1 to trusting no one as a cyclist. Another thing I have learned is to be EXTRA cautious around slow cars. It’s ALWAYS the slow car that is about to do something erratic. Makes sense if you think about it, as a driver you usually slow down to give yourself time to find that parking spot, check if you should turn here, etc.
    - dsego 6y ago
      In my experience drivers also often times just don't see you (something about saccades) or even if they do, it doesn't register. Or they misjudge you speed, they don't expect you going 25-30kph. An accident that happened to me not long ago was a driver failing to yield and pulling in front me, causing me to slam the brakes and lose traction, skidding and scraping the asphalt. Luckily it was just road rash and bruises (and I wasn't wearing my clip-less shoes - only flats from now on for me).
      - brewdad 6y ago
        The "safety" feature I hate most on my wife's car is the auto-tinting side mirrors. They are amazing at preventing being blinded by drivers with improperly installed LED headlights but they make it almost impossible to see a cyclist at night.
- joveian 6y ago
  I think they often use them when they aren't willing to do anything useful, as a "we haven't entirely forgotten that bikes exist, we just don't want to actually make things safer" measure (or, more cynically, as a "here we did something now go away" measure). Here in Portland (at least inner Portland) I think they have mostly repurposed them as a bike route marker, where bike route means more or less "a side street that isn't interrupted more frequently than nearby streets" (this being Portland, that is most side streets so there are lots of them all over the place). More heavily trafficed streets are more likely to have bike lanes and green stripes. I think sharrows are resonable as a "this street isn't likely to end abruptly in two blocks" marker, although that is quite a bit different than the initial usage. The city also somtimes installs barriers that allow bike traffic to pass but not car traffic in a few strategic places if a side street is too appealing to cars as an alternative route.
adamcstephens 6y ago
https://smartcdn.prod.postmedia.digital/montrealgazette/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/vancouver-bike-guidelines-all-ages-abilities.png?quality=90&strip=all&w=576&type=webp https://smartcdn.prod.postmedia.digital/montrealgazette/wp-c...
caturopath 6y ago
I don't know what the data say, but I wouldn't be surprised of they do nothing. I don't understand what change the sharrow gets people ready for. It just states a fact that was always true (there might be bikes here). Maybe it makes it front of mind? When I'm biking, I interpret a lot of sharrows as "bikes, get your butt to this specific location", which can make me more afraid of other drivers if I use the road in another way that might come more naturally to me.

mistahchris 6y ago

Agreed. In my experience bike commuting on a road with "sharrows" provoked a lot of anger from drivers. I don't fully avoid them because I'm a fairly aggressive city cyclist, but I don't prefer them and most of the people that I have ridden with avoid them completely.

matsemann 6y ago

In Norway we have this failed campaign for bicycle safety. On some roads there are big signs with "share the road" and the picture of a cyclist looking behind as he's overtaken by a car [0]. The intention was to "humanize" the cyclist and make cars behave, but instead the cars see the sign as "cyclists should look behind and let us pass!" or "he should cycle on the curb!" and instead increase the rage they feel when getting slowed down.. [0]: https://imgur.com/a/KSLAFzl https://imgur.com/a/KSLAFzl

chrisballinger 6y ago
I would love to see all “Share the Road” signs replaced with “Bicycles May Use Full Lane” [1] signs. This is the law in California but many motorists are unaware, or don’t care. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycles_May_Use_Full_Lane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycles_May_Use_Full_Lane
- toxik 6y ago
  This makes it seem like it would be some kind of exception. Bikes can ALWAYS use the full lane!
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    Perhaps put it on billboards so that it's clear that it applies to all roads, not just that one road. I'd also suggest putting it on driving tests, but I've never taken a state driving test where they go through and make sure you understand which questions you got wrong.
- gumby 6y ago
  I agree. Though my dad thinks you only have to slow for pedestrians where there is a posted sign reminding you of that fact. So you can't win. ("Can't win" doesn't mean you shouldn't try.)
  - davchana 6y ago
    Agree, my personal experience: walking from Walmart parking lot to walmart doors, crossing the hatched pattern section of asphalt exactly in front of entrance, half of the drivers do not stop even after looking at me. Sunny day, perfect visibility. Might be the reason that its a majority white republican county with pickup trucks.

ogre_codes 6y ago

> Being a cyclist and a driver, I see sharrows as a middle finger to cyclists. Any kind of solution that involves signage only is a middle finger to cyclists. I live in a very cycling friendly city, bike friendly infrastructure is the only thing that makes a difference. Even here where cyclists are super common, there is a pretty big portion of the population who treat cyclists as little more than road debris.

acwan93 6y ago

I’m going to call it as it is: sharrows are the answers from cities that simply don’t care about cyclists but want to “show they are doing something” to silence the complaints from what they think are niche groups. My hometown (and where I work now) is in an LA suburb and it and two adjacent cities recently implemented their “master plan”, and what they ended up doing was making arterial roads with heavy auto traffic traveling at 45-50mph into Class III bike paths. How do you expect a cyclist to “share the road” with cars going 3-4x their speed, or encourage novice cyclists? I think they just added sharrows to the busiest roads in the city and called it a day. The planners were clearly not cyclists, or more realistically with one of the cities I sent a complaint to, had their hands tied and couldn’t devise any other way to get cyclists safely from one side of the city to another due to the car-heavy infrastructure the city already had. “Bicycle boulevards” like I saw while living in Berkeley and Cupertino where there were literally roadblocks, bollards, and speed bumps installed would be laughed out here. One city planner told me that city council just didn’t see it as a priority, and that the councilmen just thought cycling was a “recreational activity” and didn’t see it as a serious commuter activity even though the planner himself was a bike commuter. Meanwhile car traffic is getting progressively worse and traffic lights still aren’t timed properly.