7 ms·

I can understand wanting to build a reliable system, but hard drives are the most unreliable part of any modern PC. A user should have the right to replace them

by fiblye 15y ago

I can understand wanting to build a reliable system, but hard drives are the most unreliable part of any modern PC. A user should have the right to replace them in the event of failure or if it's simply not enough storage at a later point. Apple traditionally taught users how to service computers themselves: http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/imacG5_20inch_harddrive.pdf http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/imacG5_20inch_harddrive.pdf The hard drives and RAM are by far the most overpriced components in Macs, and I see this as nothing more than Apple trying to squeeze out some extra money.

jsz0 15y ago
The older G5 iMac was easy to take apart. The new thinner, more tightly integrated, iMacs are not. I can definitely understand why Apple doesn't recommend users do it themselves. If you buy something like a Mac Pro Apple will give you step by step instructions on how to replace a hard drive. It's designed to be highly user serviceable. Personally I would not buy another iMac until they are redesigned to be more user serviceable.
- wiredfool 15y ago
  They're not _that_ bad, really. The glass pops off with a suction cup, and to get at the drives, you just have to take out a bunch of torx screws. It's a good bit easier than the original mac mini. You're not going to cut your fingers on anything like a cheap tower, there's just a bunch of screws.
  - mikhuang 15y ago
    "glass pops off with a suction cup" Doesn't sound like it was meant to be touched by non-nerds.
    - wiredfool 15y ago
      As opposed to the innards of... I'm drawing a blank here. What computer is significantly more friendly to non-nerds to replace the hard drive? You will still need to know about cables, and what to touch, and how to mount rails on it. Apart from the USB drives, which non-nerds know about and can use easily. Maybe one in a tray where it's just sliding. But then they're still handling a bare drive, and good luck getting one of those in an imac form factor. The glass front is held on by magnets, and comes off with a little help. It's an elegant solution to attaching a glass panel flush to the front of a computer. It's easily removed and easily replaced.
      - mikhuang 15y ago
        Agreed that you definitely need a willingness to get hands dirty and risk destroying the computer. I've had a very smooth time replacing hard drives on a unibody Macbook Pro and Macbook. Thanks for the clarification about the glass panel. I was thinking it was sealed a la iPad. Definitely sounds more elegant than me trying to take apart my old Fujitsu laptop.
      - whatusername 15y ago
        My laptop is a single screw (Thinkpad). 2 Screws to Add RAM (well for one slot anyway). Or there's a HD Caddy that I can swap out for my CD Drive by flcking a little switch.
  - tomkarlo 15y ago
    The first clue that it's not meant to be done by end users should be "a bunch of torx screws". I don't think Apple's using them just because they are a bit less likely to strip out than a standard or Phillips head.
    - wiredfool 15y ago
      Pretty much every internal screw on a mac is torx. The ones they don't want you to open are the pentalobe ones. The ones that they designate you to use are normally phillips, but they're never structural. Torx is nice. Seriously. I've given up on phillips for woodworking stuff whenever I can, even when the torx screws are 2-3x the price, because I can drive them hard and the don't strip, ever. Yeah, the hard drive on an imac isn't specified as a user replaceable part. Yes, it's stuck behind the display. But, it's really not that hard to replace, I've done it in about 15 minutes, working slowly, and with an extra pair of hands to hold the display when I actually had to get behind it. They may not be designed for non-geeks to open them, but they were designed, they're pretty elegant, and they weren't designed to prevent geeks from opening them. Now this sensor thing, _that's_ designed to keep geeks from opening it.
      - tomkarlo 15y ago
        I'm not saying they were designed to _prevent_ access. They just weren't chosen with a priority on home users being able to open them, because Apple doesn't expect home users to open their devices. And that's true for like 95% of users. By comparison, if Ikea sold you a desk and used torx screws (and didn't provide a driver) that would be pretty obnoxious, so they're either going to use standard heads or provide a driver.
      - tomkarlo 15y ago
        I'm not saying they were designed to _prevent_ access. They just weren't chosen with a priority on home users being able to open them, because Apple doesn't expect home users to open their devices. And that's true for like 95% of users. It's not some huge conspiracy against hackers. By comparison, if Ikea sold you a desk and used torx screws (and didn't provide a driver) that would be pretty obnoxious, so they're either going to use standard heads or provide a driver.
  - jsz0 15y ago
    If Apple was willing to sell replacement parts to the public I would feel better about these types of upgrades. I don't mind doing the work but it's always stressful knowing you don't really have a Plan B if something goes wrong. I tend to only do these upgrades near the end of the machine's life cycle so if I totally bork it up I won't feel too bad about it. If you're lucky you might be able to find the parts on eBay. I've been casually studying the economics behind this. My theory is it's entirely possible to buy a brand new iMac, take it apart, and sell all the individual components on eBay for a pretty decent profit.
cturner 15y ago
The hard drives and RAM are by far the most overpriced components in Macs, and I see this as nothing more than Apple trying to squeeze out some extra money. It won't be deliberate. The Apple engineers must be capable guys, and a rule from on-high to hurt customers like that would have a bad awful effect on morale in a team of good engineers. They're an integrated hardware company and probably a bit of an echo-chamber. This will be an accident from that.
- astrodust 15y ago
  When faced with a choice between making it smaller, running it faster, or making the hard-drive easier to swap, they never choose the hard drive problem to solve.
  - DougBTX 15y ago
    My old MacBook had three screws in the way of the hard drive, which had a pull tab to make it easier to get out.
__david__ 15y ago
> The hard drives and RAM are by far the most overpriced components in Macs, Currently they are. Usually they are. But it's not always the case: When I bought my MacBook a year ago the DDR-3 prices at newegg were within $10 of Apple's upgrade price. That was the first time I'd ever opted for the Apple memory.

by fiblye 15y ago

jsz0 15y ago

The older G5 iMac was easy to take apart. The new thinner, more tightly integrated, iMacs are not. I can definitely understand why Apple doesn't recommend users do it themselves. If you buy something like a Mac Pro Apple will give you step by step instructions on how to replace a hard drive. It's designed to be highly user serviceable. Personally I would not buy another iMac until they are redesigned to be more user serviceable.

wiredfool 15y ago
They're not _that_ bad, really. The glass pops off with a suction cup, and to get at the drives, you just have to take out a bunch of torx screws. It's a good bit easier than the original mac mini. You're not going to cut your fingers on anything like a cheap tower, there's just a bunch of screws.
- mikhuang 15y ago
  "glass pops off with a suction cup" Doesn't sound like it was meant to be touched by non-nerds.
  - wiredfool 15y ago
    As opposed to the innards of... I'm drawing a blank here. What computer is significantly more friendly to non-nerds to replace the hard drive? You will still need to know about cables, and what to touch, and how to mount rails on it. Apart from the USB drives, which non-nerds know about and can use easily. Maybe one in a tray where it's just sliding. But then they're still handling a bare drive, and good luck getting one of those in an imac form factor. The glass front is held on by magnets, and comes off with a little help. It's an elegant solution to attaching a glass panel flush to the front of a computer. It's easily removed and easily replaced.
    - mikhuang 15y ago
      Agreed that you definitely need a willingness to get hands dirty and risk destroying the computer. I've had a very smooth time replacing hard drives on a unibody Macbook Pro and Macbook. Thanks for the clarification about the glass panel. I was thinking it was sealed a la iPad. Definitely sounds more elegant than me trying to take apart my old Fujitsu laptop.
    - whatusername 15y ago
      My laptop is a single screw (Thinkpad). 2 Screws to Add RAM (well for one slot anyway). Or there's a HD Caddy that I can swap out for my CD Drive by flcking a little switch.
- tomkarlo 15y ago
  The first clue that it's not meant to be done by end users should be "a bunch of torx screws". I don't think Apple's using them just because they are a bit less likely to strip out than a standard or Phillips head.
  - wiredfool 15y ago
    Pretty much every internal screw on a mac is torx. The ones they don't want you to open are the pentalobe ones. The ones that they designate you to use are normally phillips, but they're never structural. Torx is nice. Seriously. I've given up on phillips for woodworking stuff whenever I can, even when the torx screws are 2-3x the price, because I can drive them hard and the don't strip, ever. Yeah, the hard drive on an imac isn't specified as a user replaceable part. Yes, it's stuck behind the display. But, it's really not that hard to replace, I've done it in about 15 minutes, working slowly, and with an extra pair of hands to hold the display when I actually had to get behind it. They may not be designed for non-geeks to open them, but they were designed, they're pretty elegant, and they weren't designed to prevent geeks from opening them. Now this sensor thing, _that's_ designed to keep geeks from opening it.
    - tomkarlo 15y ago
      I'm not saying they were designed to _prevent_ access. They just weren't chosen with a priority on home users being able to open them, because Apple doesn't expect home users to open their devices. And that's true for like 95% of users. By comparison, if Ikea sold you a desk and used torx screws (and didn't provide a driver) that would be pretty obnoxious, so they're either going to use standard heads or provide a driver.
    - tomkarlo 15y ago
      I'm not saying they were designed to _prevent_ access. They just weren't chosen with a priority on home users being able to open them, because Apple doesn't expect home users to open their devices. And that's true for like 95% of users. It's not some huge conspiracy against hackers. By comparison, if Ikea sold you a desk and used torx screws (and didn't provide a driver) that would be pretty obnoxious, so they're either going to use standard heads or provide a driver.
- jsz0 15y ago
  If Apple was willing to sell replacement parts to the public I would feel better about these types of upgrades. I don't mind doing the work but it's always stressful knowing you don't really have a Plan B if something goes wrong. I tend to only do these upgrades near the end of the machine's life cycle so if I totally bork it up I won't feel too bad about it. If you're lucky you might be able to find the parts on eBay. I've been casually studying the economics behind this. My theory is it's entirely possible to buy a brand new iMac, take it apart, and sell all the individual components on eBay for a pretty decent profit.

cturner 15y ago

The hard drives and RAM are by far the most overpriced components in Macs, and I see this as nothing more than Apple trying to squeeze out some extra money. It won't be deliberate. The Apple engineers must be capable guys, and a rule from on-high to hurt customers like that would have a bad awful effect on morale in a team of good engineers. They're an integrated hardware company and probably a bit of an echo-chamber. This will be an accident from that.

astrodust 15y ago
When faced with a choice between making it smaller, running it faster, or making the hard-drive easier to swap, they never choose the hard drive problem to solve.
- DougBTX 15y ago
  My old MacBook had three screws in the way of the hard drive, which had a pull tab to make it easier to get out.

__david__ 15y ago

> The hard drives and RAM are by far the most overpriced components in Macs, Currently they are. Usually they are. But it's not always the case: When I bought my MacBook a year ago the DDR-3 prices at newegg were within $10 of Apple's upgrade price. That was the first time I'd ever opted for the Apple memory.