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Apple's trying to build the best integrated product, and they're willing to give up some standard parts and interfaces to get there. If you want to be able to

Apple's trying to build the best integrated product, and they're willing to give up some standard parts and interfaces to get there. If you want to be able to swap out components, an iMac may not be the best choice for you.

karl_nerd 15y ago
You mean like the 5-point torx screw in the Macbook Air? http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/10/macbook-air-teardown/ http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/10/macbook-air-teardown/
- ugh 15y ago
  The one where you can buy the screwdriver from Amazon for $8?
  - colincsl 15y ago
    I even got one of those as my local dollar store. Not the best quality, but good enough to do the job.
  - karl_nerd 15y ago
    Now, yes. Was there any technical/manufacturing reasons for those 5-point screwheads? Better performance? I love the mac as much as you do. I run one at work and 2 at home. I'm just worried that they start making it suck. And i don't think apple fans saying "you should get applecare" like in the comments for this article are helping.
    - cube13 15y ago
      I think the main reason that Apple(and a lot of other manufacturers) use these is because they simplify automated assembly. Since they're using torque wrenches to screw it in, it's better to have a screw head that won't allow the bit to fall out. Since the Torx screws can be flush with the surface they're preferable to using a hex bolt. On another note, this is perhaps the first time ever that a DYI advocate is complaining about needing to buy a new tool. At this point, if you're a remotely serious electronics hobbyist, you should have one anyway. EDIT: Grammar fail.
      - adestefan 15y ago
        This is exactly the reason why they are used. You can set the torque on a screw gun and go to town on an automated or semi-automated assembly line. Phillips type screws are designed to do exactly the opposite and are terrible when used in automated assembly. Phillips was invented when it was expensive to make clutch assemblies for screw guns. Instead of the screw gun slipping the screw just made the bit slip out of it.
        joe_bleau 15y ago
        Can't you use a torque wrench with the far more common Torx fasteners? It seems to me that they selected Torx TS fasteners for a reason, and that reason had nothing to do with automated assembly.
        cube13 15y ago
        There isn't a post in these, though. So they're not the secure(TS) version, just a 5-point.
      - smackfu 15y ago
        Aren't these actually called Security Torx heads?
        evgen 15y ago
        A "security torx" has a small post in the center so that your torx driver requires a hollow center.
        jarin 15y ago
        Screw head escalation and countermeasures seem to have a lot in common with DRM. In fact, I'm going to coin the term "Physical Rights Management", or PRM :)
    - ugh 15y ago
      I do not love computers and I certainly hate the MBA (for its glossy screen). Bringing up those screws strikes me as pedantic and disingenuous, though.
    - brianpan 15y ago
      Apple's not the only company that uses "non-standard" screwheads to discourage opening hardware. Fewer people opening cases -> fewer warranty repairs for user error. That allows Apple to continue to be liberal with good warranty service. I'm not the only one with the experience of walking into an Apple store and getting a replacement iMac for a failing one with few questions and little hassle. As for applecare, they seem to be pretty lenient with those policies as well. My iMac was replaced in under a year but I've also replaced an iPod after the standard 1 year by paying just for the price of applecare (after the year had already passed). In any case, I feel pretty good about not having to worry about my Apple products. I'm ok with paying for an $8 driver once in a while if I really need it to swap parts.
  - G_Morgan 15y ago
    The ability to buy non-standard screwdrivers does not justify the use of non-standard screwdrivers where a standard is just as good.
    - ugh 15y ago
      Those are standard screwdrivers. This is how I imagine the story playing out: Someone at Apple thought it would be a good idea to have fewer of those cases where someone cracked open his laptop for fun and ruined it and then was bitterly disappointed when Apple wouldn't fix it on warranty. That's a lot less likely to happen when nobody has the correct screwdriver just in the basement and has to order it from somewhere. Whether that's the right or a useful thing to do I don't know but it's also no big deal.
    - tomkarlo 15y ago
      The "standard" you're referring to is simply not as good. Older screw heads are dated designs that are more likely to strip out than a torx or hex design. They're mostly still in use because the benefits of being common outweigh the downsides for many applications, especially in materials like wood that are more forgiving. Torx is an accepted standard (just not one commonly found in homes.) Lots of manufacturers use torx screws in locations where there is very little chance a home user will ever see them. They do it because it makes for a better product initially and easier repair by a professional later on.
      - dlaw 15y ago
        ...but the pentalobular screws in question are not standard 6-pointed Torx screws.
        tomkarlo 15y ago
        You're right. I was thrown off by the message higher in this thread that called them Torx screws. These are not Torx, they're pentalobes, and yeah, it's a non-standard by any reasonable measure. That said, I'm still not agreeing with all this carping. You buy a product that's not advertised as having user-serviceable parts inside, then complain it's hard to service. I don't see folks complaining that the inside of their Android phone or Dyson vacuum are hard to hack, and that's what the iMac is equivalent to - it's an appliance. You trade away the flexibility of a desktop form factor for the coolness of the all-in-one.
fiblye 15y ago
I can understand wanting to build a reliable system, but hard drives are the most unreliable part of any modern PC. A user should have the right to replace them in the event of failure or if it's simply not enough storage at a later point. Apple traditionally taught users how to service computers themselves: http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/imacG5_20inch_harddrive.pdf http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/imacG5_20inch_harddrive.pdf The hard drives and RAM are by far the most overpriced components in Macs, and I see this as nothing more than Apple trying to squeeze out some extra money.
- jsz0 15y ago
  The older G5 iMac was easy to take apart. The new thinner, more tightly integrated, iMacs are not. I can definitely understand why Apple doesn't recommend users do it themselves. If you buy something like a Mac Pro Apple will give you step by step instructions on how to replace a hard drive. It's designed to be highly user serviceable. Personally I would not buy another iMac until they are redesigned to be more user serviceable.
  - wiredfool 15y ago
    They're not _that_ bad, really. The glass pops off with a suction cup, and to get at the drives, you just have to take out a bunch of torx screws. It's a good bit easier than the original mac mini. You're not going to cut your fingers on anything like a cheap tower, there's just a bunch of screws.
    - mikhuang 15y ago
      "glass pops off with a suction cup" Doesn't sound like it was meant to be touched by non-nerds.
      - wiredfool 15y ago
        As opposed to the innards of... I'm drawing a blank here. What computer is significantly more friendly to non-nerds to replace the hard drive? You will still need to know about cables, and what to touch, and how to mount rails on it. Apart from the USB drives, which non-nerds know about and can use easily. Maybe one in a tray where it's just sliding. But then they're still handling a bare drive, and good luck getting one of those in an imac form factor. The glass front is held on by magnets, and comes off with a little help. It's an elegant solution to attaching a glass panel flush to the front of a computer. It's easily removed and easily replaced.
michh 15y ago
I don't expect to be able to upgrade the graphics card or the CPU but swapping out the harddrive or adding more memory used to be relatively easy for iMacs. Certainly not impossible. What if in five years your harddrive crashes and they've already switched to yet another proprietary temperature monitoring standard and no longer sell drives equipped with the old system? I've been using the same iMac for 5 years now (and upgraded the disk to an SSD about 6 months ago). Not being able to do that with a new one is a deal breaker.
bxr 15y ago
Apple does make good products, and for that reason I willingly sacrifice the ability to use the product in all the different ways I can their competitor's. I understand that the cost of a polished UI/UX is making some things impossible. However, there are things outside of the use cases they design for that would be "hard", but great for advanced users. Instead of just leaving them in the hard, warranty-voiding "you're on your own" territory like other vendors. they have a tendency to go the extra mile to make them impossible.
G_Morgan 15y ago
Yeah the fact it forces you to buy their absurdly marked up HDDs is just a convenient side effect.
xentronium 15y ago
> Apple's trying to build the best integrated product, and they're willing to give up some standard parts and interfaces to get there. If you want to be able to swap out components, an iMac may not be the best choice for you. Then their policy on hard drive replacement capability is fairly inconsistent. Why do you forbid hdd replacement for imacs and let do it on macbook pro?

karl_nerd 15y ago

You mean like the 5-point torx screw in the Macbook Air? http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/10/macbook-air-teardown/ http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/10/macbook-air-teardown/

ugh 15y ago
The one where you can buy the screwdriver from Amazon for $8?
- colincsl 15y ago
  I even got one of those as my local dollar store. Not the best quality, but good enough to do the job.
- karl_nerd 15y ago
  Now, yes. Was there any technical/manufacturing reasons for those 5-point screwheads? Better performance? I love the mac as much as you do. I run one at work and 2 at home. I'm just worried that they start making it suck. And i don't think apple fans saying "you should get applecare" like in the comments for this article are helping.
  - cube13 15y ago
    I think the main reason that Apple(and a lot of other manufacturers) use these is because they simplify automated assembly. Since they're using torque wrenches to screw it in, it's better to have a screw head that won't allow the bit to fall out. Since the Torx screws can be flush with the surface they're preferable to using a hex bolt. On another note, this is perhaps the first time ever that a DYI advocate is complaining about needing to buy a new tool. At this point, if you're a remotely serious electronics hobbyist, you should have one anyway. EDIT: Grammar fail.
    - adestefan 15y ago
      This is exactly the reason why they are used. You can set the torque on a screw gun and go to town on an automated or semi-automated assembly line. Phillips type screws are designed to do exactly the opposite and are terrible when used in automated assembly. Phillips was invented when it was expensive to make clutch assemblies for screw guns. Instead of the screw gun slipping the screw just made the bit slip out of it.
      - joe_bleau 15y ago
        Can't you use a torque wrench with the far more common Torx fasteners? It seems to me that they selected Torx TS fasteners for a reason, and that reason had nothing to do with automated assembly.
        cube13 15y ago
        There isn't a post in these, though. So they're not the secure(TS) version, just a 5-point.
    - smackfu 15y ago
      Aren't these actually called Security Torx heads?
      - evgen 15y ago
        A "security torx" has a small post in the center so that your torx driver requires a hollow center.
        jarin 15y ago
        Screw head escalation and countermeasures seem to have a lot in common with DRM. In fact, I'm going to coin the term "Physical Rights Management", or PRM :)
  - ugh 15y ago
    I do not love computers and I certainly hate the MBA (for its glossy screen). Bringing up those screws strikes me as pedantic and disingenuous, though.
  - brianpan 15y ago
    Apple's not the only company that uses "non-standard" screwheads to discourage opening hardware. Fewer people opening cases -> fewer warranty repairs for user error. That allows Apple to continue to be liberal with good warranty service. I'm not the only one with the experience of walking into an Apple store and getting a replacement iMac for a failing one with few questions and little hassle. As for applecare, they seem to be pretty lenient with those policies as well. My iMac was replaced in under a year but I've also replaced an iPod after the standard 1 year by paying just for the price of applecare (after the year had already passed). In any case, I feel pretty good about not having to worry about my Apple products. I'm ok with paying for an $8 driver once in a while if I really need it to swap parts.
- G_Morgan 15y ago
  The ability to buy non-standard screwdrivers does not justify the use of non-standard screwdrivers where a standard is just as good.
  - ugh 15y ago
    Those are standard screwdrivers. This is how I imagine the story playing out: Someone at Apple thought it would be a good idea to have fewer of those cases where someone cracked open his laptop for fun and ruined it and then was bitterly disappointed when Apple wouldn't fix it on warranty. That's a lot less likely to happen when nobody has the correct screwdriver just in the basement and has to order it from somewhere. Whether that's the right or a useful thing to do I don't know but it's also no big deal.
  - tomkarlo 15y ago
    The "standard" you're referring to is simply not as good. Older screw heads are dated designs that are more likely to strip out than a torx or hex design. They're mostly still in use because the benefits of being common outweigh the downsides for many applications, especially in materials like wood that are more forgiving. Torx is an accepted standard (just not one commonly found in homes.) Lots of manufacturers use torx screws in locations where there is very little chance a home user will ever see them. They do it because it makes for a better product initially and easier repair by a professional later on.
    - dlaw 15y ago
      ...but the pentalobular screws in question are not standard 6-pointed Torx screws.
      - tomkarlo 15y ago
        You're right. I was thrown off by the message higher in this thread that called them Torx screws. These are not Torx, they're pentalobes, and yeah, it's a non-standard by any reasonable measure. That said, I'm still not agreeing with all this carping. You buy a product that's not advertised as having user-serviceable parts inside, then complain it's hard to service. I don't see folks complaining that the inside of their Android phone or Dyson vacuum are hard to hack, and that's what the iMac is equivalent to - it's an appliance. You trade away the flexibility of a desktop form factor for the coolness of the all-in-one.

fiblye 15y ago

I can understand wanting to build a reliable system, but hard drives are the most unreliable part of any modern PC. A user should have the right to replace them in the event of failure or if it's simply not enough storage at a later point. Apple traditionally taught users how to service computers themselves: http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/imacG5_20inch_harddrive.pdf http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/imacG5_20inch_harddrive.pdf The hard drives and RAM are by far the most overpriced components in Macs, and I see this as nothing more than Apple trying to squeeze out some extra money.

jsz0 15y ago
The older G5 iMac was easy to take apart. The new thinner, more tightly integrated, iMacs are not. I can definitely understand why Apple doesn't recommend users do it themselves. If you buy something like a Mac Pro Apple will give you step by step instructions on how to replace a hard drive. It's designed to be highly user serviceable. Personally I would not buy another iMac until they are redesigned to be more user serviceable.
- wiredfool 15y ago
  They're not _that_ bad, really. The glass pops off with a suction cup, and to get at the drives, you just have to take out a bunch of torx screws. It's a good bit easier than the original mac mini. You're not going to cut your fingers on anything like a cheap tower, there's just a bunch of screws.
  - mikhuang 15y ago
    "glass pops off with a suction cup" Doesn't sound like it was meant to be touched by non-nerds.
    - wiredfool 15y ago
      As opposed to the innards of... I'm drawing a blank here. What computer is significantly more friendly to non-nerds to replace the hard drive? You will still need to know about cables, and what to touch, and how to mount rails on it. Apart from the USB drives, which non-nerds know about and can use easily. Maybe one in a tray where it's just sliding. But then they're still handling a bare drive, and good luck getting one of those in an imac form factor. The glass front is held on by magnets, and comes off with a little help. It's an elegant solution to attaching a glass panel flush to the front of a computer. It's easily removed and easily replaced.

michh 15y ago

I don't expect to be able to upgrade the graphics card or the CPU but swapping out the harddrive or adding more memory used to be relatively easy for iMacs. Certainly not impossible. What if in five years your harddrive crashes and they've already switched to yet another proprietary temperature monitoring standard and no longer sell drives equipped with the old system? I've been using the same iMac for 5 years now (and upgraded the disk to an SSD about 6 months ago). Not being able to do that with a new one is a deal breaker.

bxr 15y ago

Apple does make good products, and for that reason I willingly sacrifice the ability to use the product in all the different ways I can their competitor's. I understand that the cost of a polished UI/UX is making some things impossible. However, there are things outside of the use cases they design for that would be "hard", but great for advanced users. Instead of just leaving them in the hard, warranty-voiding "you're on your own" territory like other vendors. they have a tendency to go the extra mile to make them impossible.

G_Morgan 15y ago

Yeah the fact it forces you to buy their absurdly marked up HDDs is just a convenient side effect.

xentronium 15y ago

> Apple's trying to build the best integrated product, and they're willing to give up some standard parts and interfaces to get there. If you want to be able to swap out components, an iMac may not be the best choice for you. Then their policy on hard drive replacement capability is fairly inconsistent. Why do you forbid hdd replacement for imacs and let do it on macbook pro?