6 ms·

> That's just English, right? Except that it isn't. I can't use "else" as a conjunction in normal speech, only in computer programs. Sure you can! Shakespeare

by dahart 6y ago

> That's just English, right? Except that it isn't. I can't use "else" as a conjunction in normal speech, only in computer programs. Sure you can! Shakespeare used 'else' in the same sense as 'otherwise': https://www.shakespeareswords.com/Public/GlossaryHeadword.aspx?headwordId=9622 https://www.shakespeareswords.com/Public/GlossaryHeadword.as... "else used as a conjunction" https://wordtype.org/of/else https://wordtype.org/of/else "Or else!" was common speech before computers, and a common vague cartoon/cowboy/sign threat.

mlyle 6y ago
Yup, it grated on me to read that at the beginning. Though: else as a conjunction isn't quite archaic today. But, it is one of those usages that when I encounter it, I begin to suspect that the document I'm reading is rather old.
SilasX 6y ago
Even if it weren’t, that just means we would have called the construct “if-then-otherwise” instead (perhaps abbreviated as othw).
enf 6y ago
I am the author, and I mean that I can say "or else" in a normal sentence, but I cannot say "else" without an "or" in normal speech in my normal dialect.
- armada651 6y ago
  Wouldn't it be fair to say that it's just a shortened version of "or else"? Just like most programming languages skip "then" in "if ... then" even though it's often required for the sentence to look natural.
  - enf 6y ago
    Algol was not prone to abbreviation. Algol 58 used "or if," so if they had wanted "or else," they would have used "or else."
- echlebek 6y ago
  Maybe not in your dialect of English, but what about older dialects? "Pay for your beer. Else, leave this place at once!"
  - enf 6y ago
    This is a usage that I have no memory of ever encountering in any context other than computer programming. It may be in some dialects, but not in ones I have come in conscious contact with.
    - enf 6y ago
      Actually, no, you are right: I seem to have received one email message that begins a sentence with "else" in 1996 and another in 2003. So it is not unknown to me, but it is quite rare.
- memetherapy 6y ago
  Hmmm, thinking about my dialect of English (Lancastrian) I can certainly say else without an or and it doesn't sound unnatural to my ears. Something like "if you're hungry now then I can make you a sandwich, else we'll eat when we get to the pub" doesn't sound more awkward than using otherwise. I can't say whether that's just because the Lancastrian dialect preserves quite a few old fashioned usages that have fallen out of use in "standard" (i.e. southern posh) British English and American English, whether it's common usage in other dialects of British English, or if its just because I'm a programmer. Going to go ask some English teachers!
  - mjburgess 6y ago
    I think it's relatively common in british english. Certainly, from cumbria, it sounds quite natural also. It's more spoken dialect than written. "What else do you want to do?" etc.
    - pwagland 6y ago
      Funnily enough, to me "what else" sounds more like "what would you like to do in addition" as opposed to "what would you like to do otherwise". Certainly in Australia, "anything else with that" is quite common in shops, particularly in food shops, or pubs. Or at least it used to be be when I was there.
      - quietbritishjim 6y ago
        Sure, but if you ask for A, B and C and someone asks "what else?" then they mean "what about things that aren't A, B or C?" It's still the same basic meaning, set complement, but about things rather than logical states.
    - quietbritishjim 6y ago
      The question isn't so much whether "else" is used at all, but rather whether it's used as a conjunction. That's why the article author mentioned "or else": here "or" is the conjunction, so that proves "else" isn't fulfilling that role. In this example you gave: > What else do you want to do? "else" is acting like a noun rather than a conjunction (compare with "what activity do you want to do?).
- dahart 6y ago
  You’ve framed it in the article and here again as a correctness issue, but it’s not a correctness issue. It’s fair to say you haven’t heard it, or that it’s uncommon today, but if you use it, it’s not wrong. And people will understand you, even if you do get a sideways glance from some people. You can use “else” without “or”, if you like. The article was fascinating, especially the historical examples from different programming languages, and I buy the plausibility of a German speaker using “else” this way... I work with German speakers and they do it all the time. From the small amount of German I know, it feels like there might be some parallel with “als”. Another common one they use that’s less common with English speakers is starting a sentence with “Means”, as opposed to “It means” or “That means”. It’s not incorrect, but it does sound different. I just don’t think the German speaker explanation is the only possible one, because there absolutely is precedence for the English use of ‘else’ as a conjunction. Usage of ‘else’ with ‘or’ also makes some plausible sense here too...
  - enf 6y ago
    I was a linguistics major in college and therefore am a descriptivist, not a prescriptivist about language. When I say I cannot say this, I mean that this construct does not exist in the ordinary dialect that I speak, in the same way that I can say "that doesn't need washed" even though speakers of many other dialects have to say "washing" instead. If it is in someone else's dialect, they can feel free to say it, but my experience is that it is rare.
    - dahart 6y ago
      > If it is in someone else's dialect, they can feel free to say it, but my experience is that it is rare. Agreed. And this is the reason why use of 'else' in programming languages might not have had to be invented, right?
      - josephg 6y ago
        No. The article goes into great detail on this - if-else as a construct took a lot of iterations to finally appear in its current form. That fact is largely independent of how natural the word 'else' feels. If we used 'otherwise' instead of 'else', the control flow construct still wouldn't have been obvious.
- chx 6y ago
  Fascinating. English is not my first language but I thought https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/what_else_is_new https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/what_else_is_new and https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/what-else-can-somebody-do-say https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/what-else-can-somebod... are perfectly fine phrases.
  - _vlamacko 6y ago
    That's "else" used as an adverb, not a conjunction. Author is talking about the latter.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
reidacdc 6y ago
There is some anecdotal support for the article's position in a recent [1] article about the origin of the C programming language -- apparently the C predecessor language CPL used "OR" as a keyword where most modern languages now use "else", on precisely these grammatical grounds, as understood by Christopher Strachey. [1] https://arstechnica.com/features/2020/12/a-damn-stupid-thing-to-do-the-origins-of-c/ https://arstechnica.com/features/2020/12/a-damn-stupid-thing...
- combatentropy 6y ago
  Yes, that struck me as weird too, that someone would call it incorrect. I'm a native of the United States (the Midwest). I never gave the word a second thought. I was flummoxed by Strachey's remark and flummoxed again by this article's long investigation.
draw_down 6y ago
Yeah exactly, the whole premise here is not correct.

by dahart 6y ago

mlyle 6y ago

Yup, it grated on me to read that at the beginning. Though: else as a conjunction isn't quite archaic today. But, it is one of those usages that when I encounter it, I begin to suspect that the document I'm reading is rather old.

SilasX 6y ago

Even if it weren’t, that just means we would have called the construct “if-then-otherwise” instead (perhaps abbreviated as othw).

enf 6y ago

I am the author, and I mean that I can say "or else" in a normal sentence, but I cannot say "else" without an "or" in normal speech in my normal dialect.

armada651 6y ago
Wouldn't it be fair to say that it's just a shortened version of "or else"? Just like most programming languages skip "then" in "if ... then" even though it's often required for the sentence to look natural.
- enf 6y ago
  Algol was not prone to abbreviation. Algol 58 used "or if," so if they had wanted "or else," they would have used "or else."
echlebek 6y ago
Maybe not in your dialect of English, but what about older dialects? "Pay for your beer. Else, leave this place at once!"
- enf 6y ago
  This is a usage that I have no memory of ever encountering in any context other than computer programming. It may be in some dialects, but not in ones I have come in conscious contact with.
  - enf 6y ago
    Actually, no, you are right: I seem to have received one email message that begins a sentence with "else" in 1996 and another in 2003. So it is not unknown to me, but it is quite rare.
memetherapy 6y ago
Hmmm, thinking about my dialect of English (Lancastrian) I can certainly say else without an or and it doesn't sound unnatural to my ears. Something like "if you're hungry now then I can make you a sandwich, else we'll eat when we get to the pub" doesn't sound more awkward than using otherwise. I can't say whether that's just because the Lancastrian dialect preserves quite a few old fashioned usages that have fallen out of use in "standard" (i.e. southern posh) British English and American English, whether it's common usage in other dialects of British English, or if its just because I'm a programmer. Going to go ask some English teachers!
- mjburgess 6y ago
  I think it's relatively common in british english. Certainly, from cumbria, it sounds quite natural also. It's more spoken dialect than written. "What else do you want to do?" etc.
  - pwagland 6y ago
    Funnily enough, to me "what else" sounds more like "what would you like to do in addition" as opposed to "what would you like to do otherwise". Certainly in Australia, "anything else with that" is quite common in shops, particularly in food shops, or pubs. Or at least it used to be be when I was there.
    - quietbritishjim 6y ago
      Sure, but if you ask for A, B and C and someone asks "what else?" then they mean "what about things that aren't A, B or C?" It's still the same basic meaning, set complement, but about things rather than logical states.
  - quietbritishjim 6y ago
    The question isn't so much whether "else" is used at all, but rather whether it's used as a conjunction. That's why the article author mentioned "or else": here "or" is the conjunction, so that proves "else" isn't fulfilling that role. In this example you gave: > What else do you want to do? "else" is acting like a noun rather than a conjunction (compare with "what activity do you want to do?).
dahart 6y ago
You’ve framed it in the article and here again as a correctness issue, but it’s not a correctness issue. It’s fair to say you haven’t heard it, or that it’s uncommon today, but if you use it, it’s not wrong. And people will understand you, even if you do get a sideways glance from some people. You can use “else” without “or”, if you like. The article was fascinating, especially the historical examples from different programming languages, and I buy the plausibility of a German speaker using “else” this way... I work with German speakers and they do it all the time. From the small amount of German I know, it feels like there might be some parallel with “als”. Another common one they use that’s less common with English speakers is starting a sentence with “Means”, as opposed to “It means” or “That means”. It’s not incorrect, but it does sound different. I just don’t think the German speaker explanation is the only possible one, because there absolutely is precedence for the English use of ‘else’ as a conjunction. Usage of ‘else’ with ‘or’ also makes some plausible sense here too...
- enf 6y ago
  I was a linguistics major in college and therefore am a descriptivist, not a prescriptivist about language. When I say I cannot say this, I mean that this construct does not exist in the ordinary dialect that I speak, in the same way that I can say "that doesn't need washed" even though speakers of many other dialects have to say "washing" instead. If it is in someone else's dialect, they can feel free to say it, but my experience is that it is rare.
  - dahart 6y ago
    > If it is in someone else's dialect, they can feel free to say it, but my experience is that it is rare. Agreed. And this is the reason why use of 'else' in programming languages might not have had to be invented, right?
    - josephg 6y ago
      No. The article goes into great detail on this - if-else as a construct took a lot of iterations to finally appear in its current form. That fact is largely independent of how natural the word 'else' feels. If we used 'otherwise' instead of 'else', the control flow construct still wouldn't have been obvious.
chx 6y ago
Fascinating. English is not my first language but I thought https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/what_else_is_new https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/what_else_is_new and https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/what-else-can-somebody-do-say https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/what-else-can-somebod... are perfectly fine phrases.
- _vlamacko 6y ago
  That's "else" used as an adverb, not a conjunction. Author is talking about the latter.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

reidacdc 6y ago

There is some anecdotal support for the article's position in a recent [1] article about the origin of the C programming language -- apparently the C predecessor language CPL used "OR" as a keyword where most modern languages now use "else", on precisely these grammatical grounds, as understood by Christopher Strachey. [1] https://arstechnica.com/features/2020/12/a-damn-stupid-thing-to-do-the-origins-of-c/ https://arstechnica.com/features/2020/12/a-damn-stupid-thing...

combatentropy 6y ago
Yes, that struck me as weird too, that someone would call it incorrect. I'm a native of the United States (the Midwest). I never gave the word a second thought. I was flummoxed by Strachey's remark and flummoxed again by this article's long investigation.

draw_down 6y ago

Yeah exactly, the whole premise here is not correct.