4 ms·

[deleted]

hackinthebochs 6y ago
Race is important because people tend to support more punitive policies against transgressors of other races[1]. The demographics and the history of racial tension in the U.S. means that resistance to the Norwegian criminal justice model go far beyond considerations of cost. [1] https://nicic.gov/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-crime-and-support-punitive-policies https://nicic.gov/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-cri...
- FruityCoconut 6y ago
  There's also the significant disparity in criminality across races, as many other Western countries are discovering the hard way now too with the recent acute increase in diversity. Sociologists can argue until they're blue in the face about why that is (and I'm sure everyone reading this has their view) but it's a fact of which the Norwegians perhaps have the privilege of relative ignorance compared to the historically diverse USA.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Privacy846 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    Is there actually a disparity in crime? Or just a reported one? If police believe blacks are more likely to commit crimes, they pay more attention to them and the cycle repeats.
    - MikeUt 6y ago
      That's why the homicide rate is used for such comparisons. It's unaffected by overpolicing, and can't be swept under the rug either.
    - FruityCoconut 6y ago
      FBI crime stats are a great source. For example, of murders in 2019, "Black or African American" accounted for 51% of murderers of known race (despite just 13.4% of the general population being black). https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-... Less formally, and I'm quite serious, if you have the stomach for it I encourage you to explore the types of websites that inadvertently document these trends through amateur video (WorldStarHipHop being the classic example, but there are more confronting ones).
  - hackinthebochs 6y ago
    But crime rates do not by themselves entail retributive or punitive punishments. Because some demographic has high crime rates says nothing about the effectiveness of rehabilitative policies. People simply are more likely to have a punitive stance when the offender is of a different race.
  - dang 6y ago
    Between this and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25368536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25368536 and other posts, it's clear that you're doing race war and that's not allowed on HN. I've banned this account.
scythe 6y ago
>I’m always amused by how fixated Americans (even liberals) are on race in this matter. America is very diverse when it comes to ethnicities but it has a strong program of secular-national indoctrination, which results in a very homogenous culture considering its size. Race in this case shows up because the mind wants to find an explanation for the discrepancy in social and public trust. Norwegians trust their institutions much more than Americans do. We also know that public trust was higher until the US's "lost decade" in the '70s and figure it probably depends on some factors that have been recently changing. We look for instinctive, emotional explanations because we're interested in "forcing functions": it's not interesting to say that low-quality government caused by low-trust society leads to low-trust society because that postulates a universal dynamical property of social trust that doesn't really distinguish between societies. The hysteria surrounding the presidency of Barack Obama and the reputational endurance of a tyrant who came into the political limelight spreading ludicrous conspiracy theories about the same, in light of his significance as the first non-white POTUS, is one of many common-knowledge observations lending credence to the idea that racial resentment and mistrust drives an unwillingness to cooperate in American society. And then, of course, it's not really that easy to find truly well-run multiracial societies. Singapore and Israel have both invested in top-down integration and racial justice initiatives but resentment and discrimination stick around -- yet those are probably the best examples. Trinidad might be another example, but may be coasting on easy money from oil extraction.

[deleted]

Race is important because people tend to support more punitive policies against transgressors of other races[1]. The demographics and the history of racial tension in the U.S. means that resistance to the Norwegian criminal justice model go far beyond considerations of cost. [1] https://nicic.gov/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-crime-and-support-punitive-policies https://nicic.gov/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-cri...

FruityCoconut 6y ago
There's also the significant disparity in criminality across races, as many other Western countries are discovering the hard way now too with the recent acute increase in diversity. Sociologists can argue until they're blue in the face about why that is (and I'm sure everyone reading this has their view) but it's a fact of which the Norwegians perhaps have the privilege of relative ignorance compared to the historically diverse USA.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Privacy846 6y ago
  [deleted]
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  Is there actually a disparity in crime? Or just a reported one? If police believe blacks are more likely to commit crimes, they pay more attention to them and the cycle repeats.
  - MikeUt 6y ago
    That's why the homicide rate is used for such comparisons. It's unaffected by overpolicing, and can't be swept under the rug either.
  - FruityCoconut 6y ago
    FBI crime stats are a great source. For example, of murders in 2019, "Black or African American" accounted for 51% of murderers of known race (despite just 13.4% of the general population being black). https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-... Less formally, and I'm quite serious, if you have the stomach for it I encourage you to explore the types of websites that inadvertently document these trends through amateur video (WorldStarHipHop being the classic example, but there are more confronting ones).
- hackinthebochs 6y ago
  But crime rates do not by themselves entail retributive or punitive punishments. Because some demographic has high crime rates says nothing about the effectiveness of rehabilitative policies. People simply are more likely to have a punitive stance when the offender is of a different race.
- dang 6y ago
  Between this and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25368536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25368536 and other posts, it's clear that you're doing race war and that's not allowed on HN. I've banned this account.

scythe 6y ago

>I’m always amused by how fixated Americans (even liberals) are on race in this matter. America is very diverse when it comes to ethnicities but it has a strong program of secular-national indoctrination, which results in a very homogenous culture considering its size. Race in this case shows up because the mind wants to find an explanation for the discrepancy in social and public trust. Norwegians trust their institutions much more than Americans do. We also know that public trust was higher until the US's "lost decade" in the '70s and figure it probably depends on some factors that have been recently changing. We look for instinctive, emotional explanations because we're interested in "forcing functions": it's not interesting to say that low-quality government caused by low-trust society leads to low-trust society because that postulates a universal dynamical property of social trust that doesn't really distinguish between societies. The hysteria surrounding the presidency of Barack Obama and the reputational endurance of a tyrant who came into the political limelight spreading ludicrous conspiracy theories about the same, in light of his significance as the first non-white POTUS, is one of many common-knowledge observations lending credence to the idea that racial resentment and mistrust drives an unwillingness to cooperate in American society. And then, of course, it's not really that easy to find truly well-run multiracial societies. Singapore and Israel have both invested in top-down integration and racial justice initiatives but resentment and discrimination stick around -- yet those are probably the best examples. Trinidad might be another example, but may be coasting on easy money from oil extraction.