4 ms·

One would also do well to remember that Norway has a population of 5m, vs US at 325m. Norway is also 85% ethnic Norwegians (making for a pretty culturally homog

by aksss 6y ago

One would also do well to remember that Norway has a population of 5m, vs US at 325m. Norway is also 85% ethnic Norwegians (making for a pretty culturally homogenous society). The United States is operating at a scale that may break the Norwegian system. I don’t know that it would, but let’s see the Norwegian system work at five times the size (25m) before even entertaining the idea that it would work at 65 times the size.

Privacy846 6y ago
[deleted]
- hackinthebochs 6y ago
  Race is important because people tend to support more punitive policies against transgressors of other races[1]. The demographics and the history of racial tension in the U.S. means that resistance to the Norwegian criminal justice model go far beyond considerations of cost. [1] https://nicic.gov/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-crime-and-support-punitive-policies https://nicic.gov/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-cri...
  - FruityCoconut 6y ago
    There's also the significant disparity in criminality across races, as many other Western countries are discovering the hard way now too with the recent acute increase in diversity. Sociologists can argue until they're blue in the face about why that is (and I'm sure everyone reading this has their view) but it's a fact of which the Norwegians perhaps have the privilege of relative ignorance compared to the historically diverse USA.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - Privacy846 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      Is there actually a disparity in crime? Or just a reported one? If police believe blacks are more likely to commit crimes, they pay more attention to them and the cycle repeats.
      - MikeUt 6y ago
        That's why the homicide rate is used for such comparisons. It's unaffected by overpolicing, and can't be swept under the rug either.
      - FruityCoconut 6y ago
        FBI crime stats are a great source. For example, of murders in 2019, "Black or African American" accounted for 51% of murderers of known race (despite just 13.4% of the general population being black). https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-... Less formally, and I'm quite serious, if you have the stomach for it I encourage you to explore the types of websites that inadvertently document these trends through amateur video (WorldStarHipHop being the classic example, but there are more confronting ones).
    - hackinthebochs 6y ago
      But crime rates do not by themselves entail retributive or punitive punishments. Because some demographic has high crime rates says nothing about the effectiveness of rehabilitative policies. People simply are more likely to have a punitive stance when the offender is of a different race.
    - dang 6y ago
      Between this and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25368536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25368536 and other posts, it's clear that you're doing race war and that's not allowed on HN. I've banned this account.
- scythe 6y ago
  >I’m always amused by how fixated Americans (even liberals) are on race in this matter. America is very diverse when it comes to ethnicities but it has a strong program of secular-national indoctrination, which results in a very homogenous culture considering its size. Race in this case shows up because the mind wants to find an explanation for the discrepancy in social and public trust. Norwegians trust their institutions much more than Americans do. We also know that public trust was higher until the US's "lost decade" in the '70s and figure it probably depends on some factors that have been recently changing. We look for instinctive, emotional explanations because we're interested in "forcing functions": it's not interesting to say that low-quality government caused by low-trust society leads to low-trust society because that postulates a universal dynamical property of social trust that doesn't really distinguish between societies. The hysteria surrounding the presidency of Barack Obama and the reputational endurance of a tyrant who came into the political limelight spreading ludicrous conspiracy theories about the same, in light of his significance as the first non-white POTUS, is one of many common-knowledge observations lending credence to the idea that racial resentment and mistrust drives an unwillingness to cooperate in American society. And then, of course, it's not really that easy to find truly well-run multiracial societies. Singapore and Israel have both invested in top-down integration and racial justice initiatives but resentment and discrimination stick around -- yet those are probably the best examples. Trinidad might be another example, but may be coasting on easy money from oil extraction.
legacynl 6y ago
> Norway is also 85% ethnic Norwegians (making for a pretty culturally homogenous society). Can you cite a source that shows that this matters? It's pretty obvious how the difference in methods between the two prison systems can easily explain the difference in outcome, without having to jump to the 'race/culture'-card. Simply put, having prisoners cost money. You have to pay for housing them, and the opportunity costs of them not being able to contribute to the economy is probably many times bigger. European systems recognize this fact, and try their best to get prisoners out of prison as fast as possible. Prisoners in European systems can get counseling for mental problems, access to education, and the structure in the prisons allow the prisoners to adopt a 'normal' lifestyle. They are supposed to get up themselves in the morning, go to their education, or labor, and having time off in the evening to do their own thing. Although American media often shows otherwise, most crimes can be explained by circumstance, rather than a particular 'evilness' of the perpetrator. Nobody wants to be a criminal. European systems help prisoners to live a life free of crime. American prisons make it harder.
- onecommentman 6y ago
  “the opportunity costs of them not being able to contribute to the economy is probably many times bigger.” Can you cite a source that shows this is true? Skip the weasel word “probably” and set the opportunity cost to be the contribution of someone with their education and (lack of) social skills and many times as something > 3 times. There is no such thing as a “culture card”. If there is any “science” to the social science of sociology, there is a measure of ethnic and cultural cohesion to societies that may or may not explain behaviors. That’s like saying to an engineer, “Well, if you want to play the material hardness card...”
- aksss 6y ago
  Cultural conformity makes for a more manageable and cooperative populace. I’m not telling you this is a worthwhile trade off so give the sensitivity a rest. This factor (cultural conformity) is a measurable difference (along with population) that makes an easy comparison to the US impossible. Again, when you can show the Norwegian system operating at a scale five times its current size and cultural complexity, then it starts to become a conversation. Right now you’re essentially telling New York City that Billings, Montana has all the answers to its crime problems. It’s a non-starter, and for the exact same reasons.

by aksss 6y ago

Privacy846 6y ago

[deleted]

hackinthebochs 6y ago
Race is important because people tend to support more punitive policies against transgressors of other races[1]. The demographics and the history of racial tension in the U.S. means that resistance to the Norwegian criminal justice model go far beyond considerations of cost. [1] https://nicic.gov/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-crime-and-support-punitive-policies https://nicic.gov/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-cri...
- FruityCoconut 6y ago
  There's also the significant disparity in criminality across races, as many other Western countries are discovering the hard way now too with the recent acute increase in diversity. Sociologists can argue until they're blue in the face about why that is (and I'm sure everyone reading this has their view) but it's a fact of which the Norwegians perhaps have the privilege of relative ignorance compared to the historically diverse USA.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Privacy846 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    Is there actually a disparity in crime? Or just a reported one? If police believe blacks are more likely to commit crimes, they pay more attention to them and the cycle repeats.
    - MikeUt 6y ago
      That's why the homicide rate is used for such comparisons. It's unaffected by overpolicing, and can't be swept under the rug either.
    - FruityCoconut 6y ago
      FBI crime stats are a great source. For example, of murders in 2019, "Black or African American" accounted for 51% of murderers of known race (despite just 13.4% of the general population being black). https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-... Less formally, and I'm quite serious, if you have the stomach for it I encourage you to explore the types of websites that inadvertently document these trends through amateur video (WorldStarHipHop being the classic example, but there are more confronting ones).
  - hackinthebochs 6y ago
    But crime rates do not by themselves entail retributive or punitive punishments. Because some demographic has high crime rates says nothing about the effectiveness of rehabilitative policies. People simply are more likely to have a punitive stance when the offender is of a different race.
  - dang 6y ago
    Between this and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25368536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25368536 and other posts, it's clear that you're doing race war and that's not allowed on HN. I've banned this account.
scythe 6y ago
>I’m always amused by how fixated Americans (even liberals) are on race in this matter. America is very diverse when it comes to ethnicities but it has a strong program of secular-national indoctrination, which results in a very homogenous culture considering its size. Race in this case shows up because the mind wants to find an explanation for the discrepancy in social and public trust. Norwegians trust their institutions much more than Americans do. We also know that public trust was higher until the US's "lost decade" in the '70s and figure it probably depends on some factors that have been recently changing. We look for instinctive, emotional explanations because we're interested in "forcing functions": it's not interesting to say that low-quality government caused by low-trust society leads to low-trust society because that postulates a universal dynamical property of social trust that doesn't really distinguish between societies. The hysteria surrounding the presidency of Barack Obama and the reputational endurance of a tyrant who came into the political limelight spreading ludicrous conspiracy theories about the same, in light of his significance as the first non-white POTUS, is one of many common-knowledge observations lending credence to the idea that racial resentment and mistrust drives an unwillingness to cooperate in American society. And then, of course, it's not really that easy to find truly well-run multiracial societies. Singapore and Israel have both invested in top-down integration and racial justice initiatives but resentment and discrimination stick around -- yet those are probably the best examples. Trinidad might be another example, but may be coasting on easy money from oil extraction.

legacynl 6y ago

> Norway is also 85% ethnic Norwegians (making for a pretty culturally homogenous society). Can you cite a source that shows that this matters? It's pretty obvious how the difference in methods between the two prison systems can easily explain the difference in outcome, without having to jump to the 'race/culture'-card. Simply put, having prisoners cost money. You have to pay for housing them, and the opportunity costs of them not being able to contribute to the economy is probably many times bigger. European systems recognize this fact, and try their best to get prisoners out of prison as fast as possible. Prisoners in European systems can get counseling for mental problems, access to education, and the structure in the prisons allow the prisoners to adopt a 'normal' lifestyle. They are supposed to get up themselves in the morning, go to their education, or labor, and having time off in the evening to do their own thing. Although American media often shows otherwise, most crimes can be explained by circumstance, rather than a particular 'evilness' of the perpetrator. Nobody wants to be a criminal. European systems help prisoners to live a life free of crime. American prisons make it harder.

onecommentman 6y ago
“the opportunity costs of them not being able to contribute to the economy is probably many times bigger.” Can you cite a source that shows this is true? Skip the weasel word “probably” and set the opportunity cost to be the contribution of someone with their education and (lack of) social skills and many times as something > 3 times. There is no such thing as a “culture card”. If there is any “science” to the social science of sociology, there is a measure of ethnic and cultural cohesion to societies that may or may not explain behaviors. That’s like saying to an engineer, “Well, if you want to play the material hardness card...”
aksss 6y ago
Cultural conformity makes for a more manageable and cooperative populace. I’m not telling you this is a worthwhile trade off so give the sensitivity a rest. This factor (cultural conformity) is a measurable difference (along with population) that makes an easy comparison to the US impossible. Again, when you can show the Norwegian system operating at a scale five times its current size and cultural complexity, then it starts to become a conversation. Right now you’re essentially telling New York City that Billings, Montana has all the answers to its crime problems. It’s a non-starter, and for the exact same reasons.