8 ms·

Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

techdragon 6y ago
Well it’s pretty clear that nicer prison cells don’t encourage recidivism when you look at the statistics. So basically it comes down to social drives/desires... The will of the people has spoken and citizens of the USA _want_ to see inhumane prisons because they feel the inmates deserve it. I don’t even say that while standing on terribly high ground... Australian prisons are much closer to American ones than Norwegian ones... especially for non-white inmates. TLDR... Shits fucked and the thing I want most from the whole BLM 2020 protest movement is meaningful prison reform. Because it’s a long path to social reconciliation and meaningful integration... but it’s not anywhere near as long a road to prison reform.
- aparsons 6y ago
  Unpopular opinion: why do we need this? The people in prison are by and large human trash who have brought so much suffering to humanity. The quality of prisons in the US roughly correlates with the class of crime. I’d let it be.
  - TheNorthman 6y ago
    Yeah. If you smoke weed, you deserve what you get.
    - aparsons 6y ago
      The legal system certainly need a change - and finally states are moving to decriminalize marijuana possession (as it should always have been). On the other hand, there are crimes where you should certainly be in prison. Hard to argue that a child molester or murderer should be living in great conditions off taxpayer dollars.
      - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
        I would argue that we should do whatever it takes to get them rehabilitated, so that when they rejoin society they don't continue their life of crime.
      - colejohnson66 6y ago
        And that’s the problem. Anytime someone brings up prison reform, the whole “child molesters” and “murderers” argument comes up to detract from the fact that the majority of people in prison are for minor crimes, not murder or child molestation. And if a majority were in prison for that, maybe there’s something wrong with the society.
        throwaway201103 6y ago
        > the majority of people in prison are for minor crimes If you're talking about prison as in convicted and sentenced, I disagree. Prisons are overcrowded as it is. Minor/nonviolent criminals are not the ones serving time. If you're talking about jail as in people who are charged and awaiting trial, yes you will find more nonviolent offenders there and they may not be able to afford bail so they are stuck there. Even then in most places space is limited and first-time offenders and those seen as low risk are not held.
- smt88 6y ago
  > citizens of the USA _want_ to see inhumane prisons because they feel the inmates deserve it While I think that's true, I also think it's missing another major argument: that prison is a deterrent. I don't know enough to agree or disagree, but it's a big part of the discussion. My feeling is that Nordic countries can have nice prisons because their social safety net is so strong. Maybe they can argue that being a free, poor person in a Nordic country is still better than being in their prisons. The same is not true in the US, especially when you consider how harsh our culture is toward people who suffer from drug addiction. Abject poverty is much, much worse than the prisons in this tweet, and we don't have good non-criminal options for people who are both poor and deeply addicted to illegal drugs. You can imagine a poor person in the US (with or without an addiction) trying to steal from someone's house and ending up shooting someone. If they go to a dangerous, filthy prison, they're probably worse off than when they were free. If they go to a Nordic-style prison, their lifestyle has actually upgraded quite a lot. My understanding is that the latter option, the Nordic prison, would reduce their likelihood of having to resort to crime in the future. But the question is how much violent crime is deterred by fear of prison and whether the Nordic style of prisons would instill enough fear. I think I'm on the side of having nicer prisons, but I don't really know enough about it.
  - Privacy846 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - ajmurmann 6y ago
    Not a Nordic country, but the case still holds value: Japan apparently has a problem with lonely, old ladies doing minor crimes with the intention of going to prison where they are less lonely. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-16/japan-s-prisons-are-a-haven-for-elderly-women https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-16/japan-s-p... So there is a danger of prisons becoming too attractive. It's interesting though that the motivation isn't about creature comforts but about social connection. I wonder how much the reverse is true and not seeing your loved ones is a deterrent from prison. So much comes down to a healthy, connected society.
- giantg2 6y ago
  I think one of the biggest drivers in US prison conditions is cost. The percent of the population that is incarcerated is quite high. This would increase the per tax payer cost to support the system, while also shrinking tax revenue (people in prison generally aren't making money to pay tax on). I agree that reforms are needed. It would also be great to see a reduction in the incarceration rate by relying on other punitive measures when possible. And that people actual get a speedy trial instead of waiting years. And officers/judges actually following rule of law. I think the real root issue of all of this is that the majority of people have no idea or experience in how broken to system is. The idea that people deserve it, and even seen that many people don't laws/rights and simply assume someone charged is likely guilty.
  - Privacy846 6y ago
    > I think the real root issue of all of this is that the majority of people have no idea or experience in how broken to system is. You think that the root issue is the majority of people who (according to you) have no idea how the system works, and thus are not at all involved in the system itself? How on earth does that make sense?
    - giantg2 6y ago
      How does it not make sense? I think you are underestimating the ignorance of public. Take poll of people. Most won't know that you have to wait years to get a trial. Most won't know that the majority of cases never make it to trial and are resolved plea deals (some of which are innocent people pleading guilty to avoid sitting in jail because they can't afford bail). Most won't know their civil rights (ask them about Brady vs MD, Miranda, the 4th ammendment, etc). How many do you think understand jury nullification? These people fund the system through their taxes. They sit on juries. They elect people who commit abuses and allow abuses to happen. Even the ones who have been a victim of the system may not know it, the extent that it is common, or the other parts of the system they have not experienced. For example, you could have a summary offense filed against you and the officer might amend the charge at the trial. If you aren't given a continuance, then it could violate your rights. If the change was made because the officer made a mistake and you didn't realize/understand it, if he will possible lie to the judge and say the change was for leniency (concealment of exculpatory evidence). At the very least, you wouldn't witness prison conditions for most summary offenses. For reference, approximately 8% of the population has been convicted of a felony and less than half of them have served time in prison. So the people with firsthand prison experience will be quite low (guessing less than 10%, but couldn't find those numbers).
- Privacy846 6y ago
  The will of the people is besides the point. The policy preferences of the bottom 90% of the US population are not reflected _at all_ in actual policy making (a Princeton study from some years back). Edit: maybe this was it: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...
  - happytoexplain 6y ago
    It's impossible to demonstrate that - to what extent the population drives policy and practice in all matters in which the state has a hand is just too socially complex.
    - Privacy846 6y ago
      [deleted]
      - rayiner 6y ago
        It’s extremely difficult to model what people actually want. Stated policy preferences change dramatically when you go from the general to the specific and ask people to make specific trade-offs. For example: https://reason.com/2014/07/10/millennials-prefer-small-government-if-2/ https://reason.com/2014/07/10/millennials-prefer-small-gover... > At first glance millennials appear to prefer a "larger government providing more services" (54%) over a "smaller government providing few services" (43%). However, once tax rates are mentioned support for large government flips. Instead 57 percent favor "smaller government, providing fewer services, with low taxes" and 41 percent want "larger government providing more services, with high taxes." We also find that the race/ethnicity gap on the size of government disappears among Hispanic, Asian, and white millennials once tax rates are explicit. Most policy polls are useless, because they don’t ask voters what they’d be willing to pay or give up in another area for that particular policy. For example, support for universal healthcare plummets when you mention taxes and losing private insurance: > But the more revealing part of the survey, I think, comes from the questions focused on the costs of single payer, all of which caused support for Medicare for All to drop below 40 percent. Told that it would eliminate private health insurance and require people to pay more in taxes, for example, support fell to 37 percent. Told that it would cause some medical treatments and tests to be delayed, support dropped even further, to 26 percent. It’s also the case that in a Republican form of government, politicians are specifically charged with implementing specific policies that reflect the public’s hierarchy of preferences. Poll after poll shows the economy as the dominant concern of most voters. (Apart from this year when covid because a main concern.) People might, in the abstract say they favor taxing the wealthy and corporations more heavily. But when Election Day rolls around, they reward politicians (especially at the state and local level) who convinced a big corporation to move to their area and punish politicians who caused corporations to leave.
- happytoexplain 6y ago
  I don't see any way around the enormous hatred and desire to inflict suffering that many Americans have for anybody convicted of any crime that carries any prison term. As you said, to them it's all about what people "deserve", and that ideology is one of the most fundamental and powerful poisons in societies - a part of the id that civilized nations seek to keep out of the government's decisions. It's something straight out of the dark ages. I would never blame a person who wanted to inflict suffering on somebody who personally wronged them gravely enough, but to want that emotion enshrined in the system is immoral in the most extreme way. On this topic, I don't think it's unnecessarily dramatic or ad hominem to say that the viewpoint of many Americans is evil.
ves 6y ago
The US justice system is obviously totally broken, but one would do well to remember the absolutely incredible side of the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund.
- Privacy846 6y ago
  How much of the wealth fund is spent on incarceration?
  - Mizza 6y ago
    It's less about what is spent on incarceration, and more about how state funds are spent in such away that people don't need to commit crime as much.
    - Privacy846 6y ago
      What money is spent on what, and where did the money come from? You seem to be in the know. How much does it cost society when one percent of the population is incarcerated? But I digress; the US is not exactly a place which has been blessed in terms of access to natural resources so it’s an unfair comparison.
      - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
        > US is not exactly a place which has been blessed in terms of access to natural resources I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but that's the exact opposite of what I believe is true.
        Privacy846 6y ago
        I was employing something called sarcasm.
  - l0b0 6y ago
    Nothing[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Nor...
Privacy846 6y ago
That says more about SF, but I think the author would agree.
enahs-sf 6y ago
Sentencing in Nordic countries is also much less than what you would expect for a similar crime in the US, there is no death penalty and the prison system is focused on reforming inmates and getting them back into society. Basically the exact opposite of the United States prison system.
- rayiner 6y ago
  It’s not just the Nordic countries. In many European countries, such as Germany and Italy, someone serving a life sentence for murder is eligible to apply for parole after 15 years.
  - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
    Average time served in the US for murder is less than that.
    - boublepop 6y ago
      What is the average time served in the US? And how do you count death sentences?
      - hackeraccount 6y ago
        I take your point about the death penalty but it's application is extremely if not unusually rare in the US. I think around 20 people were executed last year.
        alphabettsy 6y ago
        That’s because it can’t be carried out in many places, not because they haven’t been sentenced.
      - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
        Figures from 2016 showed median was 13.4 years. Mean was 15 years.
progre 6y ago
Don't take these photos as representative of Swedish prison cells. The photos are obviously pre-use, most cells in actual use look as grubby by nicotine stains and heavy wear as you'ld expect after a few years.
tinalumfoil 6y ago
Author makes some big claims without much evidence. The poor conditions of US prisons, and lack of focus on rehabilitation is I think pretty well known for anyone who cares, along with the opposite reality for Nordic prisons. But you can't just throw your hands up and say, "money! corruption! racism!" and completely ignore that the American people asked for this system in response to rising crime waves. No matter how little corruption you get the American people as their thoughts stand today will never adopt the Nordic system.
- zapt02 6y ago
  > Author makes some big claims without much evidence. Is this a joke? Do you expect someone to convey a compelling case for a broken prison system in the space of a tweet?
- iaHN 6y ago
  Rising crime waves are prevented by Nordic approaches to social welfare and economic safety nets, things Americans decry as socialist.
LatteLazy 6y ago
Back in 2002 there was a prison riot in the prison in the town I went to uni in. It was over the conditions. The conditions (room size, toilets, etc) were better than my first year accommodation. I of course was paying rent for the privilege.
- Mountain_Skies 6y ago
  History repeats itself. In the 1980s the State of Alabama was sued by prison inmates over the same concerns about the conditions they lived in. At trial the State pointed out that the student dorm rooms at Auburn University were not only smaller than the prison cells, but students had to pay for the privilege of living in them. Don't know how much of a difference it made, but the inmates lost their case.
  - tomjakubowski 6y ago
    You know that Alabama has just been sued a few days ago by the DOJ over their cruel prison conditions. These prisoners are sleeping in what looks like dozens of stacked bunks in a large open room, hardly college dormlike conditions. That isn't the main issue in the suit though, it's the state's failure to protect inmates from rampant violence and abuse. https://eji.org/news/justice-department-finds-alabama-prison-conditions-unconstitutional/ https://eji.org/news/justice-department-finds-alabama-prison... https://www.npr.org/2020/12/10/944879818/justice-dept-sues-alabama-over-prison-conditions https://www.npr.org/2020/12/10/944879818/justice-dept-sues-a... Remember that a typical American prison cell, shared by two to four prisoners, has a toilet in it as well. Not so in a college dorm. Your story has gone around on Reddit but the ultimate source is this "bhamwiki" site which has no citations. https://www.bhamwiki.com/w/Auburn_University#Housing https://www.bhamwiki.com/w/Auburn_University#Housing Sounds like an apocryphal college legend to me. You're welcome to provide some better citations for it.
    - onecommentman 6y ago
      “These prisoners are sleeping in what looks like dozens of stacked bunks in a large open room, hardly college dormlike conditions” Nope, more like the condition those who volunteered to serve their country by putting their actual physical lives on the line have to live in, along with the “hard labor” of boot camp and training. All for $1602 per month US dollars to start.
artvark11 6y ago
Cyber criminals move to finland so of they get caught, they can live in a "prison" and continue to communicate with their coconspirators because they have internet access
fnord77 6y ago
looks like the $250/night hotel room I got in Stockholm, too
waihtis 6y ago
Things are much of the same here in FIN. Prison is generally good quality and you can get a good education while serving time. I don't have an optimistic long-term look on the system however. The idea of second chances and social equality has been burrowed so deep into most of the people that they've effectively forgotten that in order for a social security system like this to function, you need an input of resources into it. It is also a mixed blessing; a social security system that is too effective can be very passivating (why would you slave away doing cleaning work if you can get the equal resources for nothing?) It has created a large, growing class of people absolutely dependent and unlikely to ever exit the system; ever increasing taxation is causing big brain drain; national debt has doubled in the last 10 years; purchasing power has shot down a fifth in the last 10 years, and so forth.. It also practically taboo to speak against the system, but personally I think to uphold such a system for the long term it would need constant scrutiny, balancing, and also potentially tearing down some structures every now and then. Now the mentality is just to drive more benefits for people using the system and more costs for people upholding the system.

Well it’s pretty clear that nicer prison cells don’t encourage recidivism when you look at the statistics. So basically it comes down to social drives/desires... The will of the people has spoken and citizens of the USA _want_ to see inhumane prisons because they feel the inmates deserve it. I don’t even say that while standing on terribly high ground... Australian prisons are much closer to American ones than Norwegian ones... especially for non-white inmates. TLDR... Shits fucked and the thing I want most from the whole BLM 2020 protest movement is meaningful prison reform. Because it’s a long path to social reconciliation and meaningful integration... but it’s not anywhere near as long a road to prison reform.

aparsons 6y ago
Unpopular opinion: why do we need this? The people in prison are by and large human trash who have brought so much suffering to humanity. The quality of prisons in the US roughly correlates with the class of crime. I’d let it be.
- TheNorthman 6y ago
  Yeah. If you smoke weed, you deserve what you get.
  - aparsons 6y ago
    The legal system certainly need a change - and finally states are moving to decriminalize marijuana possession (as it should always have been). On the other hand, there are crimes where you should certainly be in prison. Hard to argue that a child molester or murderer should be living in great conditions off taxpayer dollars.
    - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
      I would argue that we should do whatever it takes to get them rehabilitated, so that when they rejoin society they don't continue their life of crime.
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      And that’s the problem. Anytime someone brings up prison reform, the whole “child molesters” and “murderers” argument comes up to detract from the fact that the majority of people in prison are for minor crimes, not murder or child molestation. And if a majority were in prison for that, maybe there’s something wrong with the society.
      - throwaway201103 6y ago
        > the majority of people in prison are for minor crimes If you're talking about prison as in convicted and sentenced, I disagree. Prisons are overcrowded as it is. Minor/nonviolent criminals are not the ones serving time. If you're talking about jail as in people who are charged and awaiting trial, yes you will find more nonviolent offenders there and they may not be able to afford bail so they are stuck there. Even then in most places space is limited and first-time offenders and those seen as low risk are not held.
smt88 6y ago
> citizens of the USA _want_ to see inhumane prisons because they feel the inmates deserve it While I think that's true, I also think it's missing another major argument: that prison is a deterrent. I don't know enough to agree or disagree, but it's a big part of the discussion. My feeling is that Nordic countries can have nice prisons because their social safety net is so strong. Maybe they can argue that being a free, poor person in a Nordic country is still better than being in their prisons. The same is not true in the US, especially when you consider how harsh our culture is toward people who suffer from drug addiction. Abject poverty is much, much worse than the prisons in this tweet, and we don't have good non-criminal options for people who are both poor and deeply addicted to illegal drugs. You can imagine a poor person in the US (with or without an addiction) trying to steal from someone's house and ending up shooting someone. If they go to a dangerous, filthy prison, they're probably worse off than when they were free. If they go to a Nordic-style prison, their lifestyle has actually upgraded quite a lot. My understanding is that the latter option, the Nordic prison, would reduce their likelihood of having to resort to crime in the future. But the question is how much violent crime is deterred by fear of prison and whether the Nordic style of prisons would instill enough fear. I think I'm on the side of having nicer prisons, but I don't really know enough about it.
- Privacy846 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ajmurmann 6y ago
  Not a Nordic country, but the case still holds value: Japan apparently has a problem with lonely, old ladies doing minor crimes with the intention of going to prison where they are less lonely. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-16/japan-s-prisons-are-a-haven-for-elderly-women https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-16/japan-s-p... So there is a danger of prisons becoming too attractive. It's interesting though that the motivation isn't about creature comforts but about social connection. I wonder how much the reverse is true and not seeing your loved ones is a deterrent from prison. So much comes down to a healthy, connected society.
giantg2 6y ago
I think one of the biggest drivers in US prison conditions is cost. The percent of the population that is incarcerated is quite high. This would increase the per tax payer cost to support the system, while also shrinking tax revenue (people in prison generally aren't making money to pay tax on). I agree that reforms are needed. It would also be great to see a reduction in the incarceration rate by relying on other punitive measures when possible. And that people actual get a speedy trial instead of waiting years. And officers/judges actually following rule of law. I think the real root issue of all of this is that the majority of people have no idea or experience in how broken to system is. The idea that people deserve it, and even seen that many people don't laws/rights and simply assume someone charged is likely guilty.
- Privacy846 6y ago
  > I think the real root issue of all of this is that the majority of people have no idea or experience in how broken to system is. You think that the root issue is the majority of people who (according to you) have no idea how the system works, and thus are not at all involved in the system itself? How on earth does that make sense?
  - giantg2 6y ago
    How does it not make sense? I think you are underestimating the ignorance of public. Take poll of people. Most won't know that you have to wait years to get a trial. Most won't know that the majority of cases never make it to trial and are resolved plea deals (some of which are innocent people pleading guilty to avoid sitting in jail because they can't afford bail). Most won't know their civil rights (ask them about Brady vs MD, Miranda, the 4th ammendment, etc). How many do you think understand jury nullification? These people fund the system through their taxes. They sit on juries. They elect people who commit abuses and allow abuses to happen. Even the ones who have been a victim of the system may not know it, the extent that it is common, or the other parts of the system they have not experienced. For example, you could have a summary offense filed against you and the officer might amend the charge at the trial. If you aren't given a continuance, then it could violate your rights. If the change was made because the officer made a mistake and you didn't realize/understand it, if he will possible lie to the judge and say the change was for leniency (concealment of exculpatory evidence). At the very least, you wouldn't witness prison conditions for most summary offenses. For reference, approximately 8% of the population has been convicted of a felony and less than half of them have served time in prison. So the people with firsthand prison experience will be quite low (guessing less than 10%, but couldn't find those numbers).
Privacy846 6y ago
The will of the people is besides the point. The policy preferences of the bottom 90% of the US population are not reflected _at all_ in actual policy making (a Princeton study from some years back). Edit: maybe this was it: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...
- happytoexplain 6y ago
  It's impossible to demonstrate that - to what extent the population drives policy and practice in all matters in which the state has a hand is just too socially complex.
  - Privacy846 6y ago
    [deleted]
    - rayiner 6y ago
      It’s extremely difficult to model what people actually want. Stated policy preferences change dramatically when you go from the general to the specific and ask people to make specific trade-offs. For example: https://reason.com/2014/07/10/millennials-prefer-small-government-if-2/ https://reason.com/2014/07/10/millennials-prefer-small-gover... > At first glance millennials appear to prefer a "larger government providing more services" (54%) over a "smaller government providing few services" (43%). However, once tax rates are mentioned support for large government flips. Instead 57 percent favor "smaller government, providing fewer services, with low taxes" and 41 percent want "larger government providing more services, with high taxes." We also find that the race/ethnicity gap on the size of government disappears among Hispanic, Asian, and white millennials once tax rates are explicit. Most policy polls are useless, because they don’t ask voters what they’d be willing to pay or give up in another area for that particular policy. For example, support for universal healthcare plummets when you mention taxes and losing private insurance: > But the more revealing part of the survey, I think, comes from the questions focused on the costs of single payer, all of which caused support for Medicare for All to drop below 40 percent. Told that it would eliminate private health insurance and require people to pay more in taxes, for example, support fell to 37 percent. Told that it would cause some medical treatments and tests to be delayed, support dropped even further, to 26 percent. It’s also the case that in a Republican form of government, politicians are specifically charged with implementing specific policies that reflect the public’s hierarchy of preferences. Poll after poll shows the economy as the dominant concern of most voters. (Apart from this year when covid because a main concern.) People might, in the abstract say they favor taxing the wealthy and corporations more heavily. But when Election Day rolls around, they reward politicians (especially at the state and local level) who convinced a big corporation to move to their area and punish politicians who caused corporations to leave.
happytoexplain 6y ago
I don't see any way around the enormous hatred and desire to inflict suffering that many Americans have for anybody convicted of any crime that carries any prison term. As you said, to them it's all about what people "deserve", and that ideology is one of the most fundamental and powerful poisons in societies - a part of the id that civilized nations seek to keep out of the government's decisions. It's something straight out of the dark ages. I would never blame a person who wanted to inflict suffering on somebody who personally wronged them gravely enough, but to want that emotion enshrined in the system is immoral in the most extreme way. On this topic, I don't think it's unnecessarily dramatic or ad hominem to say that the viewpoint of many Americans is evil.

ves 6y ago

The US justice system is obviously totally broken, but one would do well to remember the absolutely incredible side of the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund.

Privacy846 6y ago
How much of the wealth fund is spent on incarceration?
- Mizza 6y ago
  It's less about what is spent on incarceration, and more about how state funds are spent in such away that people don't need to commit crime as much.
  - Privacy846 6y ago
    What money is spent on what, and where did the money come from? You seem to be in the know. How much does it cost society when one percent of the population is incarcerated? But I digress; the US is not exactly a place which has been blessed in terms of access to natural resources so it’s an unfair comparison.
    - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
      > US is not exactly a place which has been blessed in terms of access to natural resources I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but that's the exact opposite of what I believe is true.
      - Privacy846 6y ago
        I was employing something called sarcasm.
- l0b0 6y ago
  Nothing[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Nor...

Privacy846 6y ago

That says more about SF, but I think the author would agree.

enahs-sf 6y ago

Sentencing in Nordic countries is also much less than what you would expect for a similar crime in the US, there is no death penalty and the prison system is focused on reforming inmates and getting them back into society. Basically the exact opposite of the United States prison system.

rayiner 6y ago
It’s not just the Nordic countries. In many European countries, such as Germany and Italy, someone serving a life sentence for murder is eligible to apply for parole after 15 years.
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  Average time served in the US for murder is less than that.
  - boublepop 6y ago
    What is the average time served in the US? And how do you count death sentences?
    - hackeraccount 6y ago
      I take your point about the death penalty but it's application is extremely if not unusually rare in the US. I think around 20 people were executed last year.
      - alphabettsy 6y ago
        That’s because it can’t be carried out in many places, not because they haven’t been sentenced.
    - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
      Figures from 2016 showed median was 13.4 years. Mean was 15 years.

progre 6y ago

Don't take these photos as representative of Swedish prison cells. The photos are obviously pre-use, most cells in actual use look as grubby by nicotine stains and heavy wear as you'ld expect after a few years.

tinalumfoil 6y ago

Author makes some big claims without much evidence. The poor conditions of US prisons, and lack of focus on rehabilitation is I think pretty well known for anyone who cares, along with the opposite reality for Nordic prisons. But you can't just throw your hands up and say, "money! corruption! racism!" and completely ignore that the American people asked for this system in response to rising crime waves. No matter how little corruption you get the American people as their thoughts stand today will never adopt the Nordic system.

zapt02 6y ago
> Author makes some big claims without much evidence. Is this a joke? Do you expect someone to convey a compelling case for a broken prison system in the space of a tweet?
iaHN 6y ago
Rising crime waves are prevented by Nordic approaches to social welfare and economic safety nets, things Americans decry as socialist.

LatteLazy 6y ago

Back in 2002 there was a prison riot in the prison in the town I went to uni in. It was over the conditions. The conditions (room size, toilets, etc) were better than my first year accommodation. I of course was paying rent for the privilege.

Mountain_Skies 6y ago
History repeats itself. In the 1980s the State of Alabama was sued by prison inmates over the same concerns about the conditions they lived in. At trial the State pointed out that the student dorm rooms at Auburn University were not only smaller than the prison cells, but students had to pay for the privilege of living in them. Don't know how much of a difference it made, but the inmates lost their case.
- tomjakubowski 6y ago
  You know that Alabama has just been sued a few days ago by the DOJ over their cruel prison conditions. These prisoners are sleeping in what looks like dozens of stacked bunks in a large open room, hardly college dormlike conditions. That isn't the main issue in the suit though, it's the state's failure to protect inmates from rampant violence and abuse. https://eji.org/news/justice-department-finds-alabama-prison-conditions-unconstitutional/ https://eji.org/news/justice-department-finds-alabama-prison... https://www.npr.org/2020/12/10/944879818/justice-dept-sues-alabama-over-prison-conditions https://www.npr.org/2020/12/10/944879818/justice-dept-sues-a... Remember that a typical American prison cell, shared by two to four prisoners, has a toilet in it as well. Not so in a college dorm. Your story has gone around on Reddit but the ultimate source is this "bhamwiki" site which has no citations. https://www.bhamwiki.com/w/Auburn_University#Housing https://www.bhamwiki.com/w/Auburn_University#Housing Sounds like an apocryphal college legend to me. You're welcome to provide some better citations for it.
  - onecommentman 6y ago
    “These prisoners are sleeping in what looks like dozens of stacked bunks in a large open room, hardly college dormlike conditions” Nope, more like the condition those who volunteered to serve their country by putting their actual physical lives on the line have to live in, along with the “hard labor” of boot camp and training. All for $1602 per month US dollars to start.

artvark11 6y ago

Cyber criminals move to finland so of they get caught, they can live in a "prison" and continue to communicate with their coconspirators because they have internet access

fnord77 6y ago

looks like the $250/night hotel room I got in Stockholm, too

waihtis 6y ago

Things are much of the same here in FIN. Prison is generally good quality and you can get a good education while serving time. I don't have an optimistic long-term look on the system however. The idea of second chances and social equality has been burrowed so deep into most of the people that they've effectively forgotten that in order for a social security system like this to function, you need an input of resources into it. It is also a mixed blessing; a social security system that is too effective can be very passivating (why would you slave away doing cleaning work if you can get the equal resources for nothing?) It has created a large, growing class of people absolutely dependent and unlikely to ever exit the system; ever increasing taxation is causing big brain drain; national debt has doubled in the last 10 years; purchasing power has shot down a fifth in the last 10 years, and so forth.. It also practically taboo to speak against the system, but personally I think to uphold such a system for the long term it would need constant scrutiny, balancing, and also potentially tearing down some structures every now and then. Now the mentality is just to drive more benefits for people using the system and more costs for people upholding the system.