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See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_thaler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_thaler The Austro-Hungarian Empire hasn't been a thing for

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_thaler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_thaler The Austro-Hungarian Empire hasn't been a thing for over a hundred years now, but their coinage is still circulating.

anonunivgrad 6y ago
The coin is made of silver. That's totally different than American currency, which has no intrinsic value.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > no intrinsic value. You say this as if silver has "intrinsic" value. It (and gold) have no intrinsic value to humans I would argue, and are simply assigned arbitrary psychological value. They could have industrial or even aesthetic uses, but those are culturally defined and not something innate to the material. IMHO the only things with "intrinsic" value for humans are air, shelter (especially against 'extreme' temperatures), water, and food.
  - anonunivgrad 6y ago
    You're being pedantic. You can melt down that coin and sell the silver or use it for a myriad of industrial purposes. The value of the coin is based on the market value for the silver contained inside of it. The metal in American coins, the fibers in American dollars, are worthless (relative to the face value). The value of the American dollar derives from the the US government's guarantees of payment on its debt, its status as legal tender within the US, and the requirement to pay US taxes with it. The value of the dollar derives from the might of the American government and the productivity of its economy. A silver coin is worth its weight in silver even if the government and economy that issued it long stopped existing. The dollar is worthless without the American government and American economy backing it.
    - throw0101a 6y ago
      > You're being pedantic. You can melt down that coin and sell the silver or use it for a myriad of industrial purposes. Assuming the culture you are in has the means to reach those temperatures. A silver coin may be no more than a shiny trinket to those cultures that do not have that (level of) technology. (I am reminded of the Coca-Cola bottle in the movie The Gods Must Be Crazy.) > The dollar is worthless without the American government and American economy backing it. Experience with past currencies suggests the use of coinage can outlive the original creator, and even for completely different purposes (in the case of physical objects): * https://journals.openedition.org/histoiremesure/886 https://journals.openedition.org/histoiremesure/886
      - goatsi 6y ago
        > Assuming the culture you are in has the means to reach those temperatures. A silver coin may be no more than a shiny trinket to those cultures that do not have that (level of) technology. Silver has a slightly lower melting point than copper, so any culture that has reached a bronze age level of knowledge can handle it (or even just one with half decent pottery kilns).
        Turing_Machine 6y ago
        Melting silver is one thing. Making good coins is quite another. The first really good British coins, with totally uniform diameter, thickness, and design, milled edges, and so on, were made by (once again) Isaac Newton. There had been coins of a sort for well over a thousand years by then, but they basically sucked. They were essentially raw lumps of metal that had a design hand-hammered into them. They looked more like a bad sealing wax impression than anything we'd recognize as a coin today. Identifying a good coin was difficult.
    - rwj 6y ago
      It's true that gold and silver have industrial uses, but you don't see people hoarding bars of chromium as a store if value. I doubt that gold's price is entirely due to industrial demand...
- dwaltrip 6y ago
  Can you precisely define intrinsic value? And give other specific examples of things that have this property? Examples that barely meet and barely fail to meet the criteria would be especially helpful.
  - bumby 6y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(numismatics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(numismatics...
    - dwaltrip 6y ago
      Yes, of course, certain metal objects can be melted down and then sold as raw material [1]. But even if we withhold further scrutiny of this one example, it doesn't explain the broader concept of intrinsic value. How do we robustly generalize beyond this class of metal objects?
      - bumby 6y ago
        I think the classic definition is from the non-derivative value. Fiat currency has value derived from the faith in the government printing it. Gold has a derivative value in the faith that it will be accepted as a default currency, but also an intrinsic component borne of the relative scarcity as well as material properties having some use. I may not understand what you’re specifically asking. Intrinsic value is fairly straightforward. A company may have some amount of material worth (machines, intellectual property etc.). The balance of that equity minus their debt is the intrinsic value. After selling all that property and paying off the debt whatever left is the intrinsic value. Similarly, melting down a metal and selling it as a commodity gives the intrinsic value of a currency. A borderline intrinsic value would be a currency that has very little commodity value when divorced from its derivative value (e.g., the paper stock has only a limited marginal value and essential no intrinsic value). Some commodities get most of their worth from intrinsic value (milk, pork-bellies get value from the fact the are food) where fiat currencies has disproportionate derivative value.

anonunivgrad 6y ago

The coin is made of silver. That's totally different than American currency, which has no intrinsic value.

throw0101a 6y ago
> no intrinsic value. You say this as if silver has "intrinsic" value. It (and gold) have no intrinsic value to humans I would argue, and are simply assigned arbitrary psychological value. They could have industrial or even aesthetic uses, but those are culturally defined and not something innate to the material. IMHO the only things with "intrinsic" value for humans are air, shelter (especially against 'extreme' temperatures), water, and food.
- anonunivgrad 6y ago
  You're being pedantic. You can melt down that coin and sell the silver or use it for a myriad of industrial purposes. The value of the coin is based on the market value for the silver contained inside of it. The metal in American coins, the fibers in American dollars, are worthless (relative to the face value). The value of the American dollar derives from the the US government's guarantees of payment on its debt, its status as legal tender within the US, and the requirement to pay US taxes with it. The value of the dollar derives from the might of the American government and the productivity of its economy. A silver coin is worth its weight in silver even if the government and economy that issued it long stopped existing. The dollar is worthless without the American government and American economy backing it.
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    > You're being pedantic. You can melt down that coin and sell the silver or use it for a myriad of industrial purposes. Assuming the culture you are in has the means to reach those temperatures. A silver coin may be no more than a shiny trinket to those cultures that do not have that (level of) technology. (I am reminded of the Coca-Cola bottle in the movie The Gods Must Be Crazy.) > The dollar is worthless without the American government and American economy backing it. Experience with past currencies suggests the use of coinage can outlive the original creator, and even for completely different purposes (in the case of physical objects): * https://journals.openedition.org/histoiremesure/886 https://journals.openedition.org/histoiremesure/886
    - goatsi 6y ago
      > Assuming the culture you are in has the means to reach those temperatures. A silver coin may be no more than a shiny trinket to those cultures that do not have that (level of) technology. Silver has a slightly lower melting point than copper, so any culture that has reached a bronze age level of knowledge can handle it (or even just one with half decent pottery kilns).
      - Turing_Machine 6y ago
        Melting silver is one thing. Making good coins is quite another. The first really good British coins, with totally uniform diameter, thickness, and design, milled edges, and so on, were made by (once again) Isaac Newton. There had been coins of a sort for well over a thousand years by then, but they basically sucked. They were essentially raw lumps of metal that had a design hand-hammered into them. They looked more like a bad sealing wax impression than anything we'd recognize as a coin today. Identifying a good coin was difficult.
  - rwj 6y ago
    It's true that gold and silver have industrial uses, but you don't see people hoarding bars of chromium as a store if value. I doubt that gold's price is entirely due to industrial demand...
dwaltrip 6y ago
Can you precisely define intrinsic value? And give other specific examples of things that have this property? Examples that barely meet and barely fail to meet the criteria would be especially helpful.
- bumby 6y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(numismatics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(numismatics...
  - dwaltrip 6y ago
    Yes, of course, certain metal objects can be melted down and then sold as raw material [1]. But even if we withhold further scrutiny of this one example, it doesn't explain the broader concept of intrinsic value. How do we robustly generalize beyond this class of metal objects?
    - bumby 6y ago
      I think the classic definition is from the non-derivative value. Fiat currency has value derived from the faith in the government printing it. Gold has a derivative value in the faith that it will be accepted as a default currency, but also an intrinsic component borne of the relative scarcity as well as material properties having some use. I may not understand what you’re specifically asking. Intrinsic value is fairly straightforward. A company may have some amount of material worth (machines, intellectual property etc.). The balance of that equity minus their debt is the intrinsic value. After selling all that property and paying off the debt whatever left is the intrinsic value. Similarly, melting down a metal and selling it as a commodity gives the intrinsic value of a currency. A borderline intrinsic value would be a currency that has very little commodity value when divorced from its derivative value (e.g., the paper stock has only a limited marginal value and essential no intrinsic value). Some commodities get most of their worth from intrinsic value (milk, pork-bellies get value from the fact the are food) where fiat currencies has disproportionate derivative value.