5 ms·

My own experience is that it works quite well for a certain kind of person: on Reddit I was simultaneously subbed to /r/The_Donald, /r/politics, /r/ChapoTrapHou

by isogon 6y ago

My own experience is that it works quite well for a certain kind of person: on Reddit I was simultaneously subbed to /r/The_Donald, /r/politics, /r/ChapoTrapHouse, /r/Libertarian, etc (while those were still around). I'd also drop by voat occasionally to get my weekly sample of virulently antisemitic takes. I think looking at extremes is the most realistic path. Purportedly balanced sources are dangerous because their bias is subtle; extreme sources typically have very clear bias that is easy to keep in mind as you. You can read many extreme sources and sort of take the intersection of what they show you to guess at some minimal amount of what must be really true.

gcatalfamo 6y ago
My experience is surely anecdotal, but I feel your POV applies more to open minded people, while close minded people are more inclined to feel threatened by opposite perspectives.
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  Sometimes those opposite perspectives really are threatening, though.
  - sixstringtheory 6y ago
    True enough. And the response that I think should appeal even to the close-minded: those perspectives don’t go away just because you’re not exposed to them, and you won’t understand enough to push back if you never study then.
fouc 6y ago
That's an interesting idea! I could see it being good training for simultaneously holding two opposing thoughts in your head at any given time. What do you hope to gain out of going to the effort of consuming media like this? Why not just go on an information diet altogether?
- isogon 6y ago
  I think it is valuable to read a hundred convincingly-written arguments in favor of one point of view, become convinced, and then read a hundred opposing arguments and again become convinced. This maintains my awareness of the fact that I'm a terrible judge of veracity of arguments. Since I want to know what happens in the world, I must be exposed to arguments, so I think it's very important to be viscerally aware that I'm an idiot and should use a lot of care. As for why I want to know what happens in the world and particularly where I live (i.e. North America), it is because those events affect me. If I were on an information diet, then I would probably miss, for example, the recent passing of S.386 [0] by the US Senate, which is intimately relevant to me as my long-term goal is to immigrate to the US. [0] https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/386/all-info https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/386...
  - jorgesborges 6y ago
    That’s very perceptive. Have you been surprised at all, after reading both arguments, which side of the fence you wind up on?
  - tshaddox 6y ago
    This seems to presume that these points of view you’re talking about have no objective truth value, and that the only worthwhile exercise is constructing “convincingly-written” rhetoric to support one side or another.
    - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
      I don't take that from the gp at all. My perspective is that he seems to be saying you're not going to understand a position on an issue until you internalize it "as if" it was your own belief. By internalizing one belief and then another that contradicts it, you can truly compare them on the merits and perhaps become aware of the objective reality that they both share. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesis,_antithesis,_synthesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesis,_antithesis,_synthesis
- 6y ago
hyperman1 6y ago
Aren't you just subscribing to an USA bubble now? Is there a way to add e.g. chinese, indian or islamic reddits to the mix?
- ARandomerDude 6y ago
  Aren't you just subscribing to the geopolitical bubble now? Is there a way to add quilting, farming, and spelunking? Tongue in cheek, but I bring this up to point out that while it might be good to expand one's knowledge, it can become a virtue. When that happens, we're all condemned because it'll never be broad enough.
- isogon 6y ago
  That's true. I should add /r/Sino to that list. I also subscribe to ChinaTalk, but I'm not sure how valuable a it is for really gauging what goes on in that part of the net. Unfortunately, I can't read Chinese, so I have to trust someone to translate and aggregate that content in the end. I haven't tried anything outside of US, China (these two being the two major geopolitical players), and Russia (because I am from there and understand the language). I would love to expand that list, but my time is limited. Another factor is that reading American commentary is entertaining because I live here and am immersed in the culture. The same goes for Russia. I haven't been able to make this work with China: there is a mass of cultural material that I'm not "in" on, so it feels much more like work.
maroonblazer 6y ago
Balanced sources tend to give you what the extremes don't, which is nuance. Does your approach not gloss over the nuance? Or are you able to surface the complexities of a given topic simply by examining the extremes?
- isogon 6y ago
  It does often gloss over the nuance. I ultimately try to estimate how bad I am at assessing the veracity of arguments concerning the topic at hand, which I think is most valuable. For example, I read many conflicting predictions concerning the last US election, saw that I could not distinguish bad predictions from good ones, and concluded that I have to remain unconvinced. I was vindicated by it being a very tight race. This doesn't always happen. On the other hand, I read the recent Texas filing [0] and found that I could confidently argue against it, and the best opposing arguments I could find did not convince me. To my SO, I confidently voiced the prediction that this lawsuit will fail, and articulated why the probability argument in the attached Cicchetti Declaration is misguided. This is arguably a very easy task, so this correct prediction does me little credit, but I think that's the point: even if I only become convinced of things which are obvious, it is important to not accidentally become convinced of things which are not obvious. [0] https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/22/22O155/163048/20201208132827887_TX-v-State-ExpedMot%202020-12-07%20FINAL.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/22/22O155/163048/2020...
  - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
    You may think it a very easy task, but it is one that a large proportion of our elected officials failed, or possibly pretended to fail for their own political gain.
  - sonotathrowaway 6y ago
    I don’t understand the basis by which you think this election was “tight”.
    - therealx 6y ago
magicalist 6y ago
> on Reddit I was simultaneously subbed to /r/The_Donald, /r/politics, /r/ChapoTrapHouse, /r/Libertarian, etc Maybe you were just enjoying reading shitposts? Nothing wrong with that, everyone has their version of tabloids they enjoy, but these are mostly barely thought through hot takes posted to get a reaction (and surfaced because they were successful at it). There's no reason to think their intersection is going to be anywhere near something "true" (let alone usefully true).
- sonotathrowaway 6y ago
  ^ A person studying their daily bowel movements for political commentary would be better informed than someone who read those subreddits looking for accurate political news, and they’d have a more honest assessment about the worth of their news sources. I can list plenty of subreddits with worthwhile political discussion, but none of that matters if a persons idea of “balanced” is to find the dregs of fringe and extreme political movements and use them as the basis of said balance. I’d wager that those subreddits represent less than 10% of the views of most Americans.
  - superduperuser 6y ago
    Would you mind sharing those subreddits with constructive political discussions?
    - ars 6y ago
      /r/NeutralPolitics tries pretty hard. The hard part is that reddit is majority liberal, so it's very very hard to find a good balance. Any random non-political subreddit is going to be liberal slanted. In order to find a conservative slant you have to go specifically to a political conservative subreddit.
    - sonotathrowaway 6y ago
      Left: /r/progressives Center left: /r/neoliberal Right: /r/neoconnwo Center right: /r/tuesday Neutral: /r/neutralpolitics /r/geopolitics /r/politicalfactchecking /r/truepolitics A spectrum of subreddits across ideological views, all with discussions you may actually learn something from. You’ll notice that none of those subreddits have been suspended because their members and moderators are repeatedly calling for violence against their political opponents, nor are they just recruiting boards for Stormfront. Again, finding the fringe conspiracy theorists repeatedly calling for violence doesn’t actually give you a well informed or balanced perspective.

by isogon 6y ago

gcatalfamo 6y ago

My experience is surely anecdotal, but I feel your POV applies more to open minded people, while close minded people are more inclined to feel threatened by opposite perspectives.

amanaplanacanal 6y ago
Sometimes those opposite perspectives really are threatening, though.
- sixstringtheory 6y ago
  True enough. And the response that I think should appeal even to the close-minded: those perspectives don’t go away just because you’re not exposed to them, and you won’t understand enough to push back if you never study then.

fouc 6y ago

That's an interesting idea! I could see it being good training for simultaneously holding two opposing thoughts in your head at any given time. What do you hope to gain out of going to the effort of consuming media like this? Why not just go on an information diet altogether?

isogon 6y ago
I think it is valuable to read a hundred convincingly-written arguments in favor of one point of view, become convinced, and then read a hundred opposing arguments and again become convinced. This maintains my awareness of the fact that I'm a terrible judge of veracity of arguments. Since I want to know what happens in the world, I must be exposed to arguments, so I think it's very important to be viscerally aware that I'm an idiot and should use a lot of care. As for why I want to know what happens in the world and particularly where I live (i.e. North America), it is because those events affect me. If I were on an information diet, then I would probably miss, for example, the recent passing of S.386 [0] by the US Senate, which is intimately relevant to me as my long-term goal is to immigrate to the US. [0] https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/386/all-info https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/386...
- jorgesborges 6y ago
  That’s very perceptive. Have you been surprised at all, after reading both arguments, which side of the fence you wind up on?
- tshaddox 6y ago
  This seems to presume that these points of view you’re talking about have no objective truth value, and that the only worthwhile exercise is constructing “convincingly-written” rhetoric to support one side or another.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    I don't take that from the gp at all. My perspective is that he seems to be saying you're not going to understand a position on an issue until you internalize it "as if" it was your own belief. By internalizing one belief and then another that contradicts it, you can truly compare them on the merits and perhaps become aware of the objective reality that they both share. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesis,_antithesis,_synthesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesis,_antithesis,_synthesis
6y ago

hyperman1 6y ago

Aren't you just subscribing to an USA bubble now? Is there a way to add e.g. chinese, indian or islamic reddits to the mix?

ARandomerDude 6y ago
Aren't you just subscribing to the geopolitical bubble now? Is there a way to add quilting, farming, and spelunking? Tongue in cheek, but I bring this up to point out that while it might be good to expand one's knowledge, it can become a virtue. When that happens, we're all condemned because it'll never be broad enough.
isogon 6y ago
That's true. I should add /r/Sino to that list. I also subscribe to ChinaTalk, but I'm not sure how valuable a it is for really gauging what goes on in that part of the net. Unfortunately, I can't read Chinese, so I have to trust someone to translate and aggregate that content in the end. I haven't tried anything outside of US, China (these two being the two major geopolitical players), and Russia (because I am from there and understand the language). I would love to expand that list, but my time is limited. Another factor is that reading American commentary is entertaining because I live here and am immersed in the culture. The same goes for Russia. I haven't been able to make this work with China: there is a mass of cultural material that I'm not "in" on, so it feels much more like work.

maroonblazer 6y ago

Balanced sources tend to give you what the extremes don't, which is nuance. Does your approach not gloss over the nuance? Or are you able to surface the complexities of a given topic simply by examining the extremes?

isogon 6y ago
It does often gloss over the nuance. I ultimately try to estimate how bad I am at assessing the veracity of arguments concerning the topic at hand, which I think is most valuable. For example, I read many conflicting predictions concerning the last US election, saw that I could not distinguish bad predictions from good ones, and concluded that I have to remain unconvinced. I was vindicated by it being a very tight race. This doesn't always happen. On the other hand, I read the recent Texas filing [0] and found that I could confidently argue against it, and the best opposing arguments I could find did not convince me. To my SO, I confidently voiced the prediction that this lawsuit will fail, and articulated why the probability argument in the attached Cicchetti Declaration is misguided. This is arguably a very easy task, so this correct prediction does me little credit, but I think that's the point: even if I only become convinced of things which are obvious, it is important to not accidentally become convinced of things which are not obvious. [0] https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/22/22O155/163048/20201208132827887_TX-v-State-ExpedMot%202020-12-07%20FINAL.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/22/22O155/163048/2020...
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  You may think it a very easy task, but it is one that a large proportion of our elected officials failed, or possibly pretended to fail for their own political gain.
- sonotathrowaway 6y ago
  I don’t understand the basis by which you think this election was “tight”.
  - therealx 6y ago

magicalist 6y ago

> on Reddit I was simultaneously subbed to /r/The_Donald, /r/politics, /r/ChapoTrapHouse, /r/Libertarian, etc Maybe you were just enjoying reading shitposts? Nothing wrong with that, everyone has their version of tabloids they enjoy, but these are mostly barely thought through hot takes posted to get a reaction (and surfaced because they were successful at it). There's no reason to think their intersection is going to be anywhere near something "true" (let alone usefully true).

sonotathrowaway 6y ago
^ A person studying their daily bowel movements for political commentary would be better informed than someone who read those subreddits looking for accurate political news, and they’d have a more honest assessment about the worth of their news sources. I can list plenty of subreddits with worthwhile political discussion, but none of that matters if a persons idea of “balanced” is to find the dregs of fringe and extreme political movements and use them as the basis of said balance. I’d wager that those subreddits represent less than 10% of the views of most Americans.
- superduperuser 6y ago
  Would you mind sharing those subreddits with constructive political discussions?
  - ars 6y ago
    /r/NeutralPolitics tries pretty hard. The hard part is that reddit is majority liberal, so it's very very hard to find a good balance. Any random non-political subreddit is going to be liberal slanted. In order to find a conservative slant you have to go specifically to a political conservative subreddit.
  - sonotathrowaway 6y ago
    Left: /r/progressives Center left: /r/neoliberal Right: /r/neoconnwo Center right: /r/tuesday Neutral: /r/neutralpolitics /r/geopolitics /r/politicalfactchecking /r/truepolitics A spectrum of subreddits across ideological views, all with discussions you may actually learn something from. You’ll notice that none of those subreddits have been suspended because their members and moderators are repeatedly calling for violence against their political opponents, nor are they just recruiting boards for Stormfront. Again, finding the fringe conspiracy theorists repeatedly calling for violence doesn’t actually give you a well informed or balanced perspective.