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I use IDE mainly for code editing and exploration (e.g. jump from usage to definition), for which I can't see how shell is easier. Modern IDEs have shell built

I use IDE mainly for code editing and exploration (e.g. jump from usage to definition), for which I can't see how shell is easier. Modern IDEs have shell built-in so when I finish coding, I can just open up a terminal inside IDE to run shell scripts. Effectively I'm getting the best of both worlds. I never knew that I have to follow some sort of rails laid by IDE designers, which I think it's a very common misconception by people who dislike IDEs.

pjmlp 6y ago
Shells inside IDEs are an idea that goes back to Xerox PARC workstations, the UNIX folks just have an hard time grasping that in spite of urban myths, there aren't other ways to achieve the same. Even better, because IDE integrated shells are many cases graphical REPLs with additional interaction capabilities and graphical abilities. As for the travel into memory lane, here out of 1977, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Development_Environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Development_Environment You can have a nice view how it worked, by following the Wikipedia links, or checking the presentation on Mesa/Cedar, which was the evolution of XDE as Mesa evolved into Cedar, and one of the latest version of XDE as well. "Emulating a Xerox Star (8010) Information System Running the Xerox Development Environment (XDE) 5.0" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP4hRUEIuxo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP4hRUEIuxo "Eric Bier Demonstrates Cedar" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_dt7NG38V4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_dt7NG38V4 And naturally Smalltalk-80 and Interlisp-D enviroments that precedded it, "Emulating Smalltalk-80 DV6 on a Xerox 1186 (6085 Daybreak Development Kit)" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpjRZnUw8MU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpjRZnUw8MU "The Interlisp Programming Environment", 1981 http://larry.masinter.net/interlisp-ieee.pdf http://larry.masinter.net/interlisp-ieee.pdf The lack of teaching of the computing world outside Bell Labs leads to a UNIX cult, unaware of the progress that was actually already available in the 70 and 80's, but unfortunely failed to pick up due to several reasons, so in the end there is this idolatration of the UNIX shell.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Modern IDEs have shell built-in so when I finish coding, I can just open up a terminal inside IDE to run shell scripts Sure. In GP I talk about the value of knowing the shell when you use an IDE, not the value of knowing shell instead of using an IDE. To get “the best of both worlds”, you have to know how to use the shell. > I never knew that I have to follow some sort of rails laid by IDE designers You don't, if you know how to use the shell. Whether the shell is integrated or external to the IDE is a side issue.

pjmlp 6y ago

Shells inside IDEs are an idea that goes back to Xerox PARC workstations, the UNIX folks just have an hard time grasping that in spite of urban myths, there aren't other ways to achieve the same. Even better, because IDE integrated shells are many cases graphical REPLs with additional interaction capabilities and graphical abilities. As for the travel into memory lane, here out of 1977, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Development_Environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Development_Environment You can have a nice view how it worked, by following the Wikipedia links, or checking the presentation on Mesa/Cedar, which was the evolution of XDE as Mesa evolved into Cedar, and one of the latest version of XDE as well. "Emulating a Xerox Star (8010) Information System Running the Xerox Development Environment (XDE) 5.0" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP4hRUEIuxo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP4hRUEIuxo "Eric Bier Demonstrates Cedar" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_dt7NG38V4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_dt7NG38V4 And naturally Smalltalk-80 and Interlisp-D enviroments that precedded it, "Emulating Smalltalk-80 DV6 on a Xerox 1186 (6085 Daybreak Development Kit)" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpjRZnUw8MU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpjRZnUw8MU "The Interlisp Programming Environment", 1981 http://larry.masinter.net/interlisp-ieee.pdf http://larry.masinter.net/interlisp-ieee.pdf The lack of teaching of the computing world outside Bell Labs leads to a UNIX cult, unaware of the progress that was actually already available in the 70 and 80's, but unfortunely failed to pick up due to several reasons, so in the end there is this idolatration of the UNIX shell.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> Modern IDEs have shell built-in so when I finish coding, I can just open up a terminal inside IDE to run shell scripts Sure. In GP I talk about the value of knowing the shell when you use an IDE, not the value of knowing shell instead of using an IDE. To get “the best of both worlds”, you have to know how to use the shell. > I never knew that I have to follow some sort of rails laid by IDE designers You don't, if you know how to use the shell. Whether the shell is integrated or external to the IDE is a side issue.