6 ms·

Which Covid-19 Rules Are Useless? Too Many of Them

17 points by rrauenza 6y ago

Exmoor 6y ago
Excellent article. I've been extremely disappointed at how poorly knowledge about COVID spread and prevention have spread as we continue to gain more knowledge. It absolutely makes sense that advice was general and broad in March, but we know a ton more about how this virus is spread and yet I still see people focusing on things that matter very little like some of the things and yet assuming they can do whatever the want risk free if they're more than 6ft apart.
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
  I see so many people around NYC wearing masks in empty streets and it frankly makes me believe these aren't science-educated people but science acolytes. Likewise exercising in a sparsely occupied park with very wide walkways, no one even remotely within 6 feet - running with a mask.
  - mlyle 6y ago
    I wear a mask when I'm out and about even if there's no one close. I can't know whether I will pass someone soon and donning a mask takes time. Often it's been useless, as I've not come too close to anyone. I guess that makes me non-science educated?
    - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
      Do we have any evidence someone's been infected from a momentary passing in open air? People will say it's science based I guess, but what they mean is well-meaning(and possibly completely unfounded)?
      - mlyle 6y ago
        > Do we have any evidence someone's been infected from a momentary passing in open air? We don't have the specific history of >99.9% of infections, so, of course we don't have great evidence for any scenario. Therefore I guess it's presumed safe, just like licking doorknobs? :P Many of the construction site and agricultural site transmissions took place outdoors, without close contact. Yes, outdoor is much, much, much lower risk than indoor contact-- about a 20x odds ratio. Something I tell all my students in our shop class-- PPE is useless if you have to give a lot of thought about when to employ it. Yes, everything happening in the lab right now might seem like it doesn't require safety glasses... but you might not be assessing the risk properly, you might not know everyone else's activities, and you're only ever as safe as the riskiest thing someone else is doing in the room. The cost of masking up for most activities is low, and the cost of partial knowledge or a miscalculation could be very, very high.
  - bzb6 6y ago
    Here in Spain we are forced by law to wear masks when we go out even if the street is completely empty. It feels like a way of pushing the responsibility of what’s happening from the government to the people.
    - person_of_color 6y ago
      COVID-19 is likely to be airborne.
  - whateveracct 6y ago
    Wearing a mask is a great way to make yourself less approachable in public. In Japan, it's been normal for a long time to wear a facemask to signal you don't want to talk to strangers. Now that mask wearing has become normal, it will likely be more acceptable to wear masks like that in the US as well :)
    - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
      > In Japan, it's been normal for a long time to wear a facemask to signal you don't want to talk to strangers. It also seems like they have a problem with suicide. No thanks - I'm happy not normalizing mask usage to avoid socializing!
      - mlyle 6y ago
        Japan's suicide rate is 14.9 per 100k. US is 14.5. Belgium is 15.9. https://data.oecd.org/healthstat/suicide-rates.htm https://data.oecd.org/healthstat/suicide-rates.htm Japan is a bit of an outlier on the high side, but the US is nearly as much so.
      - whateveracct 6y ago
        I don't think the wearing of masks is a root cause of suicides. Pretty asinine to think something so minor and inoffensive and self-focused could have such a huge societal effect Regardless, I'm gonna continue to wear a mask in public beyond this pandemic. It's not gonna make me more likely to kill myself, and I don't see why it would harm others (outside of people getting mad about it apparently)
        gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
        It would be hard to not think japanese has some strange cultural aspects and that, say, masks and hikkikomori are weird anti-social signs of something deeper about how Japan views personhood.
      - CyberDildonics 6y ago
        Japan also has lots of people speaking japanese. Therefore, masks make people speak japanese.
  - Galaxity 6y ago
    I see no reason to think those people believe it's necessary to wear them in an empty street, they are just wearing them because it's easy to put on and the are heading somewhere it's crowded. I wouldnt necessarily wear a mask in an empty street but it doesn't bother me in the slightest just like wearing shirts and pants don't. So many of them are likely just putting it on like all other articles of clothes when going out. Maybe you feel they are uncomfortable things to wear if you don't have to, but for many people they simply aren't.
  - jfengel 6y ago
    This isn't a contest to see who can get away with the least mask wearing. If you're outside, you're going to need a mask at some point. Especially in New York City, where you are almost certainly leaving your building via crowded corridors. You put on a mask when you leave your apartment, and if you leave it on, it's one fewer thing to think about when you get to your destination. It's not at all difficult to run with a mask on. The holes in a mask are far, far larger than air molecules. I wear one when running in places where I might encounter people, and there is absolutely zero effect on my breathing. The only reason I take it off is that it can get sweaty. In fact, with the weather as cold as it is, I find people wearing masks when running just to warm their breath. It gets lung-burningly cold in New York. The mask is very little hassle, and it doesn't require optimization. These people aren't suffering from wearing a mask outdoors. It could just be convenience and getting on with their lives, and as good New Yorkers couldn't care less what you think about them.
  - rrauenza 6y ago
    I've seen this complaint about people driving around in cars with masks on. Sometimes if I'm driving somewhere sunny, I might put my hat on before I get into the car... it doesn't mean I think I need it on while driving. Sometimes I put it on so I won't accidentally leave it in the car when I get to my destination.
mikelward 6y ago
If we assume Anthony Fauci is right (I have no reason to assume otherwise): a) We should have banned multi-family indoor gatherings (not sure how, but spike in cases after Thanksgiving suggests we needed to find a way). b) California had no need to close playgrounds and outdoor dining. Doubly so without providing a reason, as this article rightly says.
- Exmoor 6y ago
  a) I think most people have realized these types of rules are toothless. You're not going to go around knocking on doors on Thanksgiving (nor would it likely be legal do so). Everywhere I've heard about was strongly urging people not to gather for the holidays outside of your household. b) Outdoor dining is tricky, and a lot of that is a government created problem. Outdoor dining at truly open tables, properly spaced with good ventilation is probably fairly low risk. At least where I live though, restaurants went out and bought large, fully enclosed tents and filled them with tables to comply with the letter of the law. Unfortunately these don't have very good ventilation on average. The virus also survives longer in cold, dry air so during winter you could logically make the argument that these tented dining situations are perhaps less safe than indoor dining. As I said, this is a government created problem, since they probably should have given guidance on the best practices for outdoor dining before restaurants went out and spent thousands of dollars on them, but they likely made the political calculation that its easier to just close everything. There's also the possibility that outdoor dining makes young people from separate households (say 6 twenty year old friends) gather together at one table without masks, but I suspect that if they're doing that at restaurants now they'd just move to someone's home and order pizza when the restaurants closed.

17 points by rrauenza 6y ago

Excellent article. I've been extremely disappointed at how poorly knowledge about COVID spread and prevention have spread as we continue to gain more knowledge. It absolutely makes sense that advice was general and broad in March, but we know a ton more about how this virus is spread and yet I still see people focusing on things that matter very little like some of the things and yet assuming they can do whatever the want risk free if they're more than 6ft apart.

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
I see so many people around NYC wearing masks in empty streets and it frankly makes me believe these aren't science-educated people but science acolytes. Likewise exercising in a sparsely occupied park with very wide walkways, no one even remotely within 6 feet - running with a mask.
- mlyle 6y ago
  I wear a mask when I'm out and about even if there's no one close. I can't know whether I will pass someone soon and donning a mask takes time. Often it's been useless, as I've not come too close to anyone. I guess that makes me non-science educated?
  - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
    Do we have any evidence someone's been infected from a momentary passing in open air? People will say it's science based I guess, but what they mean is well-meaning(and possibly completely unfounded)?
    - mlyle 6y ago
      > Do we have any evidence someone's been infected from a momentary passing in open air? We don't have the specific history of >99.9% of infections, so, of course we don't have great evidence for any scenario. Therefore I guess it's presumed safe, just like licking doorknobs? :P Many of the construction site and agricultural site transmissions took place outdoors, without close contact. Yes, outdoor is much, much, much lower risk than indoor contact-- about a 20x odds ratio. Something I tell all my students in our shop class-- PPE is useless if you have to give a lot of thought about when to employ it. Yes, everything happening in the lab right now might seem like it doesn't require safety glasses... but you might not be assessing the risk properly, you might not know everyone else's activities, and you're only ever as safe as the riskiest thing someone else is doing in the room. The cost of masking up for most activities is low, and the cost of partial knowledge or a miscalculation could be very, very high.
- bzb6 6y ago
  Here in Spain we are forced by law to wear masks when we go out even if the street is completely empty. It feels like a way of pushing the responsibility of what’s happening from the government to the people.
  - person_of_color 6y ago
    COVID-19 is likely to be airborne.
- whateveracct 6y ago
  Wearing a mask is a great way to make yourself less approachable in public. In Japan, it's been normal for a long time to wear a facemask to signal you don't want to talk to strangers. Now that mask wearing has become normal, it will likely be more acceptable to wear masks like that in the US as well :)
  - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
    > In Japan, it's been normal for a long time to wear a facemask to signal you don't want to talk to strangers. It also seems like they have a problem with suicide. No thanks - I'm happy not normalizing mask usage to avoid socializing!
    - mlyle 6y ago
      Japan's suicide rate is 14.9 per 100k. US is 14.5. Belgium is 15.9. https://data.oecd.org/healthstat/suicide-rates.htm https://data.oecd.org/healthstat/suicide-rates.htm Japan is a bit of an outlier on the high side, but the US is nearly as much so.
    - whateveracct 6y ago
      I don't think the wearing of masks is a root cause of suicides. Pretty asinine to think something so minor and inoffensive and self-focused could have such a huge societal effect Regardless, I'm gonna continue to wear a mask in public beyond this pandemic. It's not gonna make me more likely to kill myself, and I don't see why it would harm others (outside of people getting mad about it apparently)
      - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
        It would be hard to not think japanese has some strange cultural aspects and that, say, masks and hikkikomori are weird anti-social signs of something deeper about how Japan views personhood.
    - CyberDildonics 6y ago
      Japan also has lots of people speaking japanese. Therefore, masks make people speak japanese.
- Galaxity 6y ago
  I see no reason to think those people believe it's necessary to wear them in an empty street, they are just wearing them because it's easy to put on and the are heading somewhere it's crowded. I wouldnt necessarily wear a mask in an empty street but it doesn't bother me in the slightest just like wearing shirts and pants don't. So many of them are likely just putting it on like all other articles of clothes when going out. Maybe you feel they are uncomfortable things to wear if you don't have to, but for many people they simply aren't.
- jfengel 6y ago
  This isn't a contest to see who can get away with the least mask wearing. If you're outside, you're going to need a mask at some point. Especially in New York City, where you are almost certainly leaving your building via crowded corridors. You put on a mask when you leave your apartment, and if you leave it on, it's one fewer thing to think about when you get to your destination. It's not at all difficult to run with a mask on. The holes in a mask are far, far larger than air molecules. I wear one when running in places where I might encounter people, and there is absolutely zero effect on my breathing. The only reason I take it off is that it can get sweaty. In fact, with the weather as cold as it is, I find people wearing masks when running just to warm their breath. It gets lung-burningly cold in New York. The mask is very little hassle, and it doesn't require optimization. These people aren't suffering from wearing a mask outdoors. It could just be convenience and getting on with their lives, and as good New Yorkers couldn't care less what you think about them.
- rrauenza 6y ago
  I've seen this complaint about people driving around in cars with masks on. Sometimes if I'm driving somewhere sunny, I might put my hat on before I get into the car... it doesn't mean I think I need it on while driving. Sometimes I put it on so I won't accidentally leave it in the car when I get to my destination.

mikelward 6y ago

If we assume Anthony Fauci is right (I have no reason to assume otherwise): a) We should have banned multi-family indoor gatherings (not sure how, but spike in cases after Thanksgiving suggests we needed to find a way). b) California had no need to close playgrounds and outdoor dining. Doubly so without providing a reason, as this article rightly says.

Exmoor 6y ago
a) I think most people have realized these types of rules are toothless. You're not going to go around knocking on doors on Thanksgiving (nor would it likely be legal do so). Everywhere I've heard about was strongly urging people not to gather for the holidays outside of your household. b) Outdoor dining is tricky, and a lot of that is a government created problem. Outdoor dining at truly open tables, properly spaced with good ventilation is probably fairly low risk. At least where I live though, restaurants went out and bought large, fully enclosed tents and filled them with tables to comply with the letter of the law. Unfortunately these don't have very good ventilation on average. The virus also survives longer in cold, dry air so during winter you could logically make the argument that these tented dining situations are perhaps less safe than indoor dining. As I said, this is a government created problem, since they probably should have given guidance on the best practices for outdoor dining before restaurants went out and spent thousands of dollars on them, but they likely made the political calculation that its easier to just close everything. There's also the possibility that outdoor dining makes young people from separate households (say 6 twenty year old friends) gather together at one table without masks, but I suspect that if they're doing that at restaurants now they'd just move to someone's home and order pizza when the restaurants closed.