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I really don't think that's it to be honest. I'm talking about the difference between an expert level speaker of a second language and a native speaker of that

by svara 6y ago

I really don't think that's it to be honest. I'm talking about the difference between an expert level speaker of a second language and a native speaker of that language. Getting basic phonology right happens way before you get to that problem. Do you know an example of someone who has learned a second language and sounds indistinguishable from a native speaker to a native speaker? I don't, but would be curious to hear about counterexamples. I suspect maybe people who speak professionally (e.g., actors as GP suggested) might be candidates, but I don't know any...

gryson 6y ago
Sure, it's somewhat rare but not that uncommon. The Swedish researchers Kenneth Hyltenstam and Niclas Abrahamsson have a series of studies looking at immigrants in Sweden who began learning Swedish as adults and who are judged to be native speakers by true native speakers who heard their speech. In one study, they gave a very thorough battery of linguistic tests to these adult learners, and for some of them, the only test they failed to perform equal to native speakers was on their knowledge of proverbs and idioms. The place you're most likely to find such near-native speakers is in immigrant communities.
- svara 6y ago
  Cool, that literature is pretty much exactly what I've been looking for. Without having looked at the precise methodological details, it seems to broadly support my point, though: "Our findings lead us to the conclusions that the rare nativelike adult learners sometimes observed would all turn out to be exceptionally talented language learners with an unusual ability to compensate for maturational effects and, consequently, that their nativelikeness per se does not constitute a reason to reject the critical period hypothesis." https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232004616_The_robustness_of_aptitude_effects_in_near-native_second_language_acquisition https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232004616_The_robus... (By critical period and maturational effect they refer to the hypothesis that age determines, or influences, whether you'll be able to attain a native-like level.)
  - gryson 6y ago
    Setting aside their interpretation of the results, which is a bit heatedly contested (and I believe they were focused more on syntax rather than speech), there are really two questions to ask that I think are relevant to the discussion: 1) Is it POSSIBLE for the speech of an adult language learner to be indistinguishable from a native speaker? 2) If (1) is true, are such instances common? The reason (1) is important to ask is because a strict critical period hypothesis may rule this out by saying once the brain has matured beyond a certain point (age ~12, for example, or possibly younger for phonology), you can no longer acquire a language to the extent of a native speaker. But there is plenty of evidence that (1) is true. In the Hyltenstam and Abrahamsson literature, they are able to find quite a few learners whose speech is indistinguishable from that of native speakers. They then run a battery of more strict tests (syntax/knowledge tests IIRC) against these learners that reveal slight differences. However, (2) is certainly false. It's somewhat rare to find an adult learner who truly sounds like a native speaker. That, however, isn't evidence in favor of a strict critical period/maturational effects hypothesis, since there can be many reasons for failure. My intuition is that there is much less support for a strict critical period hypothesis these days. Most people now talk about a 'sensitive period', which reflects that there are a broad range of factors that favor successful acquisition in children but that adults have decreased sensitivity to.
tsimionescu 6y ago
You are right, I probably over-sold it a bit. Yes, becoming indistinguishable from a native speaker is a pretty high bar, though having a fairly non-descript accent I think is achievable. For cases of non-native speakers mastering an accent, one anecdote I heard of was Hugh Laurie's audition tape for the role of Dr House. The story goes that the producers of the show considered it extremely important to have the character be played such that he was quintessentially American, and were very happy with the audition tape from Hugh Laurie, who convinced them on this front - only to meet him later and be shocked at his native RP accent.
Viliam1234 6y ago
I know one guy who has a hobby/obsession to learn perfect English pronounciation. (English English, not American English.) Seems to me he did a great job. I am not a native speaker, so my opinion probably doesn't matter much here, but at least I can say he sounds quite different from other people who have English as a second language. Knowing how much time and money he spent to achieve this goal, it seems to me like a complete waste of time and money. Apparently, his opinion differs. But his example makes me believe that the goal is attainable... but also explains why most people don't do it.

by svara 6y ago

gryson 6y ago

Sure, it's somewhat rare but not that uncommon. The Swedish researchers Kenneth Hyltenstam and Niclas Abrahamsson have a series of studies looking at immigrants in Sweden who began learning Swedish as adults and who are judged to be native speakers by true native speakers who heard their speech. In one study, they gave a very thorough battery of linguistic tests to these adult learners, and for some of them, the only test they failed to perform equal to native speakers was on their knowledge of proverbs and idioms. The place you're most likely to find such near-native speakers is in immigrant communities.

svara 6y ago
Cool, that literature is pretty much exactly what I've been looking for. Without having looked at the precise methodological details, it seems to broadly support my point, though: "Our findings lead us to the conclusions that the rare nativelike adult learners sometimes observed would all turn out to be exceptionally talented language learners with an unusual ability to compensate for maturational effects and, consequently, that their nativelikeness per se does not constitute a reason to reject the critical period hypothesis." https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232004616_The_robustness_of_aptitude_effects_in_near-native_second_language_acquisition https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232004616_The_robus... (By critical period and maturational effect they refer to the hypothesis that age determines, or influences, whether you'll be able to attain a native-like level.)
- gryson 6y ago
  Setting aside their interpretation of the results, which is a bit heatedly contested (and I believe they were focused more on syntax rather than speech), there are really two questions to ask that I think are relevant to the discussion: 1) Is it POSSIBLE for the speech of an adult language learner to be indistinguishable from a native speaker? 2) If (1) is true, are such instances common? The reason (1) is important to ask is because a strict critical period hypothesis may rule this out by saying once the brain has matured beyond a certain point (age ~12, for example, or possibly younger for phonology), you can no longer acquire a language to the extent of a native speaker. But there is plenty of evidence that (1) is true. In the Hyltenstam and Abrahamsson literature, they are able to find quite a few learners whose speech is indistinguishable from that of native speakers. They then run a battery of more strict tests (syntax/knowledge tests IIRC) against these learners that reveal slight differences. However, (2) is certainly false. It's somewhat rare to find an adult learner who truly sounds like a native speaker. That, however, isn't evidence in favor of a strict critical period/maturational effects hypothesis, since there can be many reasons for failure. My intuition is that there is much less support for a strict critical period hypothesis these days. Most people now talk about a 'sensitive period', which reflects that there are a broad range of factors that favor successful acquisition in children but that adults have decreased sensitivity to.

tsimionescu 6y ago

You are right, I probably over-sold it a bit. Yes, becoming indistinguishable from a native speaker is a pretty high bar, though having a fairly non-descript accent I think is achievable. For cases of non-native speakers mastering an accent, one anecdote I heard of was Hugh Laurie's audition tape for the role of Dr House. The story goes that the producers of the show considered it extremely important to have the character be played such that he was quintessentially American, and were very happy with the audition tape from Hugh Laurie, who convinced them on this front - only to meet him later and be shocked at his native RP accent.

Viliam1234 6y ago

I know one guy who has a hobby/obsession to learn perfect English pronounciation. (English English, not American English.) Seems to me he did a great job. I am not a native speaker, so my opinion probably doesn't matter much here, but at least I can say he sounds quite different from other people who have English as a second language. Knowing how much time and money he spent to achieve this goal, it seems to me like a complete waste of time and money. Apparently, his opinion differs. But his example makes me believe that the goal is attainable... but also explains why most people don't do it.