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And I'm saying a story can still explore issues and have you ponder about them without the author having to step in and explicitly tell you to do so. The story

And I'm saying a story can still explore issues and have you ponder about them without the author having to step in and explicitly tell you to do so. The story could, for example, have explored the issue of which way the princess might lean from the guys point of view, which covers all the same human nature angles, and then it could also have gone on to have a proper ending. I value storycraft. I'm not saying the story should have been different back then, I'm sure it was perfect for 1882, and thats why its remembered now. I'm interested in how I differ from the 1882 audience. edit: and koans are more about invoking mind states beyond words, like a kind of mind-hack, than they are about pondering ponderable things.

the_af 6y ago
I'm not particularly fond of this story -- I think its preamble is too long and meandering -- but why do you think this has something to do with 1882 vs 2020 audiences? And why do you think it's bad storycraft to leave the conclusion open-ended? This kind of device is used to great success in modern fiction, such as Stephen King's (non-supernatural!) short story "All that you love will be taken away", where the conclusion is not only open-ended, but also left to chance!
- codeulike 6y ago
  Well I'm hoping someone more familiar with cultural history might be able to tell me. 138 years ago is a hell of a long time. E.g. maybe murderous jealousy was a more risque concept then? And hence asking your audience to consider it was more provocative?
jancsika 6y ago
> I value storycraft. The form of this story has used widely since, and those stories have been incredibly popular with both authors and audiences for well over 100 years now. Implying that a tried-and-true technique of story-telling lies outside of storycraft betrays basic a lack of understanding of the subject. Story tellers enjoy this form for the challenge of balancing what the omniscient narrator reveals-- too much or too strong in one direction and the whole thing falls flat. Readers enjoy the form because it feels a bit like ski jumping-- the writer provides the momentum and the reader's imagination leaps off the end with all the story's implications flying past. In fact, Nabokov balanced this same form masterfully in the short story, "Signs and Symbols." The effect there is that the reader leaps off into a level of... well, I don't want to ruin it. :) But it's enough to say that outside of VR I don't think that story could have been effectively written without using the lady-or-the-tiger form.
- the_af 6y ago
  Great comment! Now I'll have to hunt down that story by Nabokov.
- deleted 6y ago
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- hitekker 6y ago
  > Readers enjoy the form because it feels a bit like ski jumping-- the writer provides the momentum and the reader's imagination leaps off the end with all the story's implications flying past. Great metaphor. The story zips you down at full-speed, and then launches you upwards into the air. If you're comfortable feeling ungrounded, you'll be able to look across the horizon, in awe of the sights you couldn't see before. But if you're a lazy or cowardly person, your overriding urge will to return to the earth, to get back down to the safety of the soft slopes. Heck, later on, you might even petition the proprietor of the ski-resort to get rid of the ramp.
  - codeulike 6y ago
    Well that would be great if the story had anything profound for me to ponder. I don't think it earnt it (speaking of my personal experience of the story). "Murderous jealousy exists" is hardly that earth shaking. I think partly with this story it was because it was on the front page of HN, so I had very high expectations. The story is clearly building to something, to me in 2020 it seemed disappointing. I'm interested to hear how it was received in 1882 though.

the_af 6y ago

I'm not particularly fond of this story -- I think its preamble is too long and meandering -- but why do you think this has something to do with 1882 vs 2020 audiences? And why do you think it's bad storycraft to leave the conclusion open-ended? This kind of device is used to great success in modern fiction, such as Stephen King's (non-supernatural!) short story "All that you love will be taken away", where the conclusion is not only open-ended, but also left to chance!

codeulike 6y ago
Well I'm hoping someone more familiar with cultural history might be able to tell me. 138 years ago is a hell of a long time. E.g. maybe murderous jealousy was a more risque concept then? And hence asking your audience to consider it was more provocative?

jancsika 6y ago

> I value storycraft. The form of this story has used widely since, and those stories have been incredibly popular with both authors and audiences for well over 100 years now. Implying that a tried-and-true technique of story-telling lies outside of storycraft betrays basic a lack of understanding of the subject. Story tellers enjoy this form for the challenge of balancing what the omniscient narrator reveals-- too much or too strong in one direction and the whole thing falls flat. Readers enjoy the form because it feels a bit like ski jumping-- the writer provides the momentum and the reader's imagination leaps off the end with all the story's implications flying past. In fact, Nabokov balanced this same form masterfully in the short story, "Signs and Symbols." The effect there is that the reader leaps off into a level of... well, I don't want to ruin it. :) But it's enough to say that outside of VR I don't think that story could have been effectively written without using the lady-or-the-tiger form.

the_af 6y ago
Great comment! Now I'll have to hunt down that story by Nabokov.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
hitekker 6y ago
> Readers enjoy the form because it feels a bit like ski jumping-- the writer provides the momentum and the reader's imagination leaps off the end with all the story's implications flying past. Great metaphor. The story zips you down at full-speed, and then launches you upwards into the air. If you're comfortable feeling ungrounded, you'll be able to look across the horizon, in awe of the sights you couldn't see before. But if you're a lazy or cowardly person, your overriding urge will to return to the earth, to get back down to the safety of the soft slopes. Heck, later on, you might even petition the proprietor of the ski-resort to get rid of the ramp.
- codeulike 6y ago
  Well that would be great if the story had anything profound for me to ponder. I don't think it earnt it (speaking of my personal experience of the story). "Murderous jealousy exists" is hardly that earth shaking. I think partly with this story it was because it was on the front page of HN, so I had very high expectations. The story is clearly building to something, to me in 2020 it seemed disappointing. I'm interested to hear how it was received in 1882 though.