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Truly a great story! Reminds me of this story... Two years ago I was collaborating with a coworker. Most of our time was in his office. I would look over hi

Truly a great story! Reminds me of this story... Two years ago I was collaborating with a coworker. Most of our time was in his office. I would look over his shoulder as he typed. He had recently adopted a new IDE and spent considerable time configuring it and learning its features. He was very proud of how productive it made him. Then one day we collaborated in my office instead. I use plain Unix tools, all independent. He watched as I did everything he did but with point-tools instead of a huge IDE. Rather than switching between files, I started a new terminal window and ran Vim. Other windows were for the build-run-crash loop, analyzers, note-taking, etc. Often I would do Vim tricks like doing a calculation by writing a formula on a line in Vim and piping the line to "bc" (`!!bc RETURN`). In fact, many of his IDE features I would access by calling out to external programs. I had to hold back a laugh when he said: "Oh my God! Linux IS your IDE!" Well, duh. Isn't that's what Ken and Dennis created in the 1970s? Unix started out as the ultimate development environment! It just also happens to run everything else now.

FeepingCreature 6y ago
My .bashrc is on a quest to turn my yakuake into the better half of vscode. "The shell is my IDE" is definitely true. Though Google takes up a worryingly large fraction of it. Wonder if there could be a shell tool to just dump the first stackoverflow hit for a search. bashrc highlights: https://gist.github.com/FeepingCreature/649588a2f6fa27c717bdde02a2b92eb4 https://gist.github.com/FeepingCreature/649588a2f6fa27c717bd... - ctrl-G for "directory up" - ctrl-E for "find and open in editor" (using fzf, substitute 'edit' with your editor of choice; the history gymnastics is to basically pretend that you typed it in manually for purposes of bash history) - and of course, for german keyboard layout devs, rebinding capslock to alt-gr.
- boogies 6y ago
  > Wonder if there could be a shell tool to just dump the first stackoverflow hit for a search. There should be. I think `curl cheat.sh/programming+question` does that. There might also be a way to do that with surfraw. I just use DuckDuckGo, it almost always pops up an Stack Exchange answer in the sidebar when I search for something relevant to an SE.
  - IggleSniggle 6y ago
    I really love cht.sh, but find I never actually use it except for the occasional git syntax reminder. I think a flow that went `cht.sh -> fzf to narrow results and select a result -> vim -> OS clipboard` would have me using it all the time.
  - kylebenzle 6y ago
    Funny, I have been asking this EXACT question on Linux forums and here for several months. "How can I have a shortcut that I type, then enter a search query and have the first result open automatically?"
  - fowlie 6y ago
    I have a fish function to open StackOverflow in Lynx. I can just do `stack how to write a function in fish shell`.
- scns 6y ago
  I have .. as an alias for cd ..
  - IggleSniggle 6y ago
    Don’t stop there! ... for cd ../.. .... ..... They compose naturally too, ..../targetDir I use these so frequently and naturally that I forget that they aren’t built-in to my shell. Also, a shortcut to jump between the last 5 or working directories. Print them with `dirs` and cd to a directory by invoking its number.
    - ramshorns 6y ago
      How do you make that history? Something like an alias for cd that pushes them onto a queue?
      - IggleSniggle 6y ago
        `dirs` is a shell built-in for the directory stack. If you supply it with -v, it will number the output. So the trick is just to make these line up, which is also really just using a feature of `cd` that extracts an entry from the directory stack at position n. My aliases look like this: alias dirs='dirs -v' alias '1'='cd -' alias '2'='cd -2' alias '3'='cd -3' etc. Doesn't seem like it would make a big difference, but it's very fluid and adopts well to whatever "you happen to working on in the moment."
  - thpx86 6y ago
    I use "setopt autocd" in zsh. Typing the directory will cd into that directory. Any directory. No aliases.
- shmoogy 6y ago
  >Though Google takes up a worryingly large fraction of it. Wonder if there could be a shell tool to just dump the first stackoverflow hit for a search. I saw this yesterday and your comment reminded me of it: https://github.com/danrobinson/tracestack https://github.com/danrobinson/tracestack I kind of thought it was a novel idea, but kind of pointless - if you know how to read a traceback you can Google it... but I guess it makes a lot of sense depending on your workflow.
- 0x008 6y ago
  Can you explain the fzf binding? I don’t get what’s going on there
  - C0d3r 6y ago
    fzf can be used as a cool selector in the terminal, it just outputs what you picked from the list, so if you run `ls | fzf`, it will pass the list of files/dirs into fzf, where you can fuzzy search, select and it outputs to STDOUT. So if you want to edit a file from inside a directory easily, you can do: vim $(find | fzf)
  - FeepingCreature 6y ago
    Okay, the actual fzf call is just the $(fzf). But when you use a keybinding with -x, your shell executes the command directly. So when you press return in fzf, indicated by the exit code being zero, we additionally do three things: - echo a facsimile of the prompt followed by the edit command so that it looks like you just typed "edit filename" - insert that facsimile into the history buffer so that you can redo the edit command with arrow-up - actually start the editor - and clear the commandline of anything you may have written beforehand, which would otherwise still be there and break the illusion. The reasoning behind this dance is that if you just do an ordinary bind, you just get the edit_fuzzy call in your bash history, which is pretty useless. You want the actual generated edit call, not the edit_fuzzy call. So we use bind -x and "pretend that you typed in the edit call manually". We could just make ctrl-E insert the edit command into the readline buffer, but then we'd have to press return twice. ${PS1@P} is "PS1, expanded as if it were a prompt (P)".
- WJW 6y ago
  Didn't even realize you could bind control+key in bashrc. Definitely stealing some of those, thanks for the example!
- bsg75 6y ago
  Can you share how a drop down terminal figures in here as compared to a standard window?
  - FeepingCreature 6y ago
    I just like drop down terminals. :)
- vulcan01 6y ago
  > Wonder if there could be a shell tool to just dump the first stackoverflow hit for a search. I use https://github.com/samtay/so https://github.com/samtay/so, which lets you search any stack exchange site (SO by default). It's fully terminal-based.
- dxdm 6y ago
  > and of course, for german keyboard layout devs, rebinding capslock to alt-gr. I went the other way: use a US layout keyboard, and bind capslock to switch to German layout while capslock is being held down. I find that I need my fancy braces and brackets more than my umlauts. :)
  - sidcypher 6y ago
    I'm using US-intl (international) right now, supported everywhere I've seen. AltGr+q is ä, AltGr+s is ß, AltGr+y is ü, etc. Might seem weird at first, but it has most of the special or combined symbols you might need, not just German ones. Other than that, it's your usual US layout suitable for vim/evil, shell, coding, etc.
emmelaich 6y ago
Yep, literally! Programmer's Workbench... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PWB/UNIX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PWB/UNIX
billfruit 6y ago
In general though Emacs single handedly can do most of everything required in software development. One could practically spend all ones development time inside it, so I would say Emacs workflows are more impressive than Vi ones, especially since so much of great functionality is baked into it without even needing pluggins. This I say after a couple of recent days in which the GUD gdb interface was a great help in solving a few of the problems I was working on. Does VI has something similar built in? Or for any of the common workflows like these which work out of the box, without needing plugins or extra configuration: 1. Remote file editing on other computers. 2. Rectangular/columnar text edits and manipulations. 3. Essentially infinite kill ring, i.e, a very easy to use copy-paste history: This I find is very useful, one becomes acustomed to building, blocks of text by assembling things from the kill ring. Also plays nice with point 4, easy macro record/replay. 4. Easy macro record/replay of even complicated edit sequences. 5.Inbuilt calculator, with both rpn and algebraic modes. 6. The Dir-ed mode provides a very convenient file manager.
- seszett 6y ago
  All these points are also natively handled by vim. Except for 5 which needs an external cli calculator.
  - billfruit 6y ago
    But are those functionality available natively without plugins? All these are in the default emacs distribution possibly since more than 20 years, and are in a very usable, stable state of functionality.
    - seszett 6y ago
      Some of them do take plugins (the netrw plugin I think) but this plugin is included and active in a default install.
    - animal_spirits 6y ago
      Aren't these technically plugins for emacs that are shipped with the editor? Org-mode is a plugin for emacs too right?
Privacy846 6y ago
Unix isn’t integrated enough. You can’t go very far with just throwing strings around (or bytes). You can’t safely refactor, say, Java code like you can do in Intellij. Maybe you can piece something together manually that does the same thing, eventually. But if you have to do all of that work yourself then I wouldn’t call it integrated.
- jackyinger 6y ago
  I think the point is that with *nix you aren’t just stuck with what some product manager at JetBrains thought was a cool feature. And when you want to brew something up from scratch, or do the same task for the nth time, you don’t have learn how on earth this IDE implemented it, or learn a whole new API. Take for instance an IDE’s find usages function, often a simple grey -r from a judiciously chosen directory gets you the same thing, but faster and more flexible (if your mind is wired that way, I suppose). Edited to complete fragment...
  - throwaway744678 6y ago
    Any sane IDE 'find usage' is miles above your simple grep: just try that on any sypbol with a name common enough, and compare the results...
    - hansvm 6y ago
      This winds up not being a big deal if you use grep a lot because you'll tend toward greppable names. More importantly though, in a codebase big/complicated enough to need "find references" functionality beyond what you get from grep, do you not also have comments, reflection, and all manner of other garbage that you need to search for via some mechanism anyway? For a few languages (more on the way) you also have semgrep as a way to add something a bit more powerful than "find references" into a normal shell workflow.
      - Privacy846 6y ago
        I have used `grep -r` a ton on our codebase and purpose-specific tools like “find usages” are always more to the point while `grep -r` can easily be misleading. Also you can’t just tend toward greppable names (whatever that means) if you share a codebase with developers who are on Windows and wouldn’t be able to tell grep from sudo.
pasabagi 6y ago
I tried this approach for a while, and the thing I couldn't get my head around, is how do you undo mistakes? Like, you write a messed up sed command - are you supposed to revert your changes to the last git commit? Not make mistakes? If I could work out a way to make undo as seamless and full featured as undo in, say, vim, then I'd be a total convert. Is there such a way?
- davesque 6y ago
  In all fairness, is there ever really a water tight abstraction for undoing things at the file system level like you're talking about? If I'm ever trying to do some magic in a Unix-like environment, I usually always make sure that I'm using "dry run" mode if it's available or running the command against files that are in version control. On top of that, it's also essential to invest a reasonable amount of time into ensuring that the command won't run amok and start following symlinks or something like that. These are habits you have to develop if you want to operate at the command line level. IDEs often don't offer similar levels of power or control or the ability to cleanly undo large sets of changes like that.
  - pasabagi 6y ago
    I don't know of one - that's kind of why I'm asking. I don't think it's at all unfeasible (I think ZFS might do it, never tried it out) and I think it would be an amazing development. I think the unix model of one-purpose programs helps collaboration, maintenance, and produces higher quality programs. I just also think that because they're working in an environment that allows pretty simplistic interop (streams of bytes) and generally provides no history of changes, they tend to be fragile when used in concert, and brutally unforgiving when used alone. If you could undo stuff easily, suddenly the 'brutal, unforgiving' part goes away, and it would enable a much more relaxing, explorative atmosphere, while also meaning people don't have to do stuff like 'alias rm=mv -t ~/.Trash' or whatever.

FeepingCreature 6y ago

My .bashrc is on a quest to turn my yakuake into the better half of vscode. "The shell is my IDE" is definitely true. Though Google takes up a worryingly large fraction of it. Wonder if there could be a shell tool to just dump the first stackoverflow hit for a search. bashrc highlights: https://gist.github.com/FeepingCreature/649588a2f6fa27c717bdde02a2b92eb4 https://gist.github.com/FeepingCreature/649588a2f6fa27c717bd... - ctrl-G for "directory up" - ctrl-E for "find and open in editor" (using fzf, substitute 'edit' with your editor of choice; the history gymnastics is to basically pretend that you typed it in manually for purposes of bash history) - and of course, for german keyboard layout devs, rebinding capslock to alt-gr.

boogies 6y ago
> Wonder if there could be a shell tool to just dump the first stackoverflow hit for a search. There should be. I think `curl cheat.sh/programming+question` does that. There might also be a way to do that with surfraw. I just use DuckDuckGo, it almost always pops up an Stack Exchange answer in the sidebar when I search for something relevant to an SE.
- IggleSniggle 6y ago
  I really love cht.sh, but find I never actually use it except for the occasional git syntax reminder. I think a flow that went `cht.sh -> fzf to narrow results and select a result -> vim -> OS clipboard` would have me using it all the time.
- kylebenzle 6y ago
  Funny, I have been asking this EXACT question on Linux forums and here for several months. "How can I have a shortcut that I type, then enter a search query and have the first result open automatically?"
- fowlie 6y ago
  I have a fish function to open StackOverflow in Lynx. I can just do `stack how to write a function in fish shell`.
scns 6y ago
I have .. as an alias for cd ..
- IggleSniggle 6y ago
  Don’t stop there! ... for cd ../.. .... ..... They compose naturally too, ..../targetDir I use these so frequently and naturally that I forget that they aren’t built-in to my shell. Also, a shortcut to jump between the last 5 or working directories. Print them with `dirs` and cd to a directory by invoking its number.
  - ramshorns 6y ago
    How do you make that history? Something like an alias for cd that pushes them onto a queue?
    - IggleSniggle 6y ago
      `dirs` is a shell built-in for the directory stack. If you supply it with -v, it will number the output. So the trick is just to make these line up, which is also really just using a feature of `cd` that extracts an entry from the directory stack at position n. My aliases look like this: alias dirs='dirs -v' alias '1'='cd -' alias '2'='cd -2' alias '3'='cd -3' etc. Doesn't seem like it would make a big difference, but it's very fluid and adopts well to whatever "you happen to working on in the moment."
- thpx86 6y ago
  I use "setopt autocd" in zsh. Typing the directory will cd into that directory. Any directory. No aliases.
shmoogy 6y ago
>Though Google takes up a worryingly large fraction of it. Wonder if there could be a shell tool to just dump the first stackoverflow hit for a search. I saw this yesterday and your comment reminded me of it: https://github.com/danrobinson/tracestack https://github.com/danrobinson/tracestack I kind of thought it was a novel idea, but kind of pointless - if you know how to read a traceback you can Google it... but I guess it makes a lot of sense depending on your workflow.
0x008 6y ago
Can you explain the fzf binding? I don’t get what’s going on there
- C0d3r 6y ago
  fzf can be used as a cool selector in the terminal, it just outputs what you picked from the list, so if you run `ls | fzf`, it will pass the list of files/dirs into fzf, where you can fuzzy search, select and it outputs to STDOUT. So if you want to edit a file from inside a directory easily, you can do: vim $(find | fzf)
- FeepingCreature 6y ago
  Okay, the actual fzf call is just the $(fzf). But when you use a keybinding with -x, your shell executes the command directly. So when you press return in fzf, indicated by the exit code being zero, we additionally do three things: - echo a facsimile of the prompt followed by the edit command so that it looks like you just typed "edit filename" - insert that facsimile into the history buffer so that you can redo the edit command with arrow-up - actually start the editor - and clear the commandline of anything you may have written beforehand, which would otherwise still be there and break the illusion. The reasoning behind this dance is that if you just do an ordinary bind, you just get the edit_fuzzy call in your bash history, which is pretty useless. You want the actual generated edit call, not the edit_fuzzy call. So we use bind -x and "pretend that you typed in the edit call manually". We could just make ctrl-E insert the edit command into the readline buffer, but then we'd have to press return twice. ${PS1@P} is "PS1, expanded as if it were a prompt (P)".
WJW 6y ago
Didn't even realize you could bind control+key in bashrc. Definitely stealing some of those, thanks for the example!
bsg75 6y ago
Can you share how a drop down terminal figures in here as compared to a standard window?
- FeepingCreature 6y ago
  I just like drop down terminals. :)
vulcan01 6y ago
> Wonder if there could be a shell tool to just dump the first stackoverflow hit for a search. I use https://github.com/samtay/so https://github.com/samtay/so, which lets you search any stack exchange site (SO by default). It's fully terminal-based.
dxdm 6y ago
> and of course, for german keyboard layout devs, rebinding capslock to alt-gr. I went the other way: use a US layout keyboard, and bind capslock to switch to German layout while capslock is being held down. I find that I need my fancy braces and brackets more than my umlauts. :)
- sidcypher 6y ago
  I'm using US-intl (international) right now, supported everywhere I've seen. AltGr+q is ä, AltGr+s is ß, AltGr+y is ü, etc. Might seem weird at first, but it has most of the special or combined symbols you might need, not just German ones. Other than that, it's your usual US layout suitable for vim/evil, shell, coding, etc.

emmelaich 6y ago

Yep, literally! Programmer's Workbench... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PWB/UNIX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PWB/UNIX

billfruit 6y ago

In general though Emacs single handedly can do most of everything required in software development. One could practically spend all ones development time inside it, so I would say Emacs workflows are more impressive than Vi ones, especially since so much of great functionality is baked into it without even needing pluggins. This I say after a couple of recent days in which the GUD gdb interface was a great help in solving a few of the problems I was working on. Does VI has something similar built in? Or for any of the common workflows like these which work out of the box, without needing plugins or extra configuration: 1. Remote file editing on other computers. 2. Rectangular/columnar text edits and manipulations. 3. Essentially infinite kill ring, i.e, a very easy to use copy-paste history: This I find is very useful, one becomes acustomed to building, blocks of text by assembling things from the kill ring. Also plays nice with point 4, easy macro record/replay. 4. Easy macro record/replay of even complicated edit sequences. 5.Inbuilt calculator, with both rpn and algebraic modes. 6. The Dir-ed mode provides a very convenient file manager.

seszett 6y ago
All these points are also natively handled by vim. Except for 5 which needs an external cli calculator.
- billfruit 6y ago
  But are those functionality available natively without plugins? All these are in the default emacs distribution possibly since more than 20 years, and are in a very usable, stable state of functionality.
  - seszett 6y ago
    Some of them do take plugins (the netrw plugin I think) but this plugin is included and active in a default install.
  - animal_spirits 6y ago
    Aren't these technically plugins for emacs that are shipped with the editor? Org-mode is a plugin for emacs too right?

Privacy846 6y ago

Unix isn’t integrated enough. You can’t go very far with just throwing strings around (or bytes). You can’t safely refactor, say, Java code like you can do in Intellij. Maybe you can piece something together manually that does the same thing, eventually. But if you have to do all of that work yourself then I wouldn’t call it integrated.

jackyinger 6y ago
I think the point is that with *nix you aren’t just stuck with what some product manager at JetBrains thought was a cool feature. And when you want to brew something up from scratch, or do the same task for the nth time, you don’t have learn how on earth this IDE implemented it, or learn a whole new API. Take for instance an IDE’s find usages function, often a simple grey -r from a judiciously chosen directory gets you the same thing, but faster and more flexible (if your mind is wired that way, I suppose). Edited to complete fragment...
- throwaway744678 6y ago
  Any sane IDE 'find usage' is miles above your simple grep: just try that on any sypbol with a name common enough, and compare the results...
  - hansvm 6y ago
    This winds up not being a big deal if you use grep a lot because you'll tend toward greppable names. More importantly though, in a codebase big/complicated enough to need "find references" functionality beyond what you get from grep, do you not also have comments, reflection, and all manner of other garbage that you need to search for via some mechanism anyway? For a few languages (more on the way) you also have semgrep as a way to add something a bit more powerful than "find references" into a normal shell workflow.
    - Privacy846 6y ago
      I have used `grep -r` a ton on our codebase and purpose-specific tools like “find usages” are always more to the point while `grep -r` can easily be misleading. Also you can’t just tend toward greppable names (whatever that means) if you share a codebase with developers who are on Windows and wouldn’t be able to tell grep from sudo.

pasabagi 6y ago

I tried this approach for a while, and the thing I couldn't get my head around, is how do you undo mistakes? Like, you write a messed up sed command - are you supposed to revert your changes to the last git commit? Not make mistakes? If I could work out a way to make undo as seamless and full featured as undo in, say, vim, then I'd be a total convert. Is there such a way?

davesque 6y ago
In all fairness, is there ever really a water tight abstraction for undoing things at the file system level like you're talking about? If I'm ever trying to do some magic in a Unix-like environment, I usually always make sure that I'm using "dry run" mode if it's available or running the command against files that are in version control. On top of that, it's also essential to invest a reasonable amount of time into ensuring that the command won't run amok and start following symlinks or something like that. These are habits you have to develop if you want to operate at the command line level. IDEs often don't offer similar levels of power or control or the ability to cleanly undo large sets of changes like that.
- pasabagi 6y ago
  I don't know of one - that's kind of why I'm asking. I don't think it's at all unfeasible (I think ZFS might do it, never tried it out) and I think it would be an amazing development. I think the unix model of one-purpose programs helps collaboration, maintenance, and produces higher quality programs. I just also think that because they're working in an environment that allows pretty simplistic interop (streams of bytes) and generally provides no history of changes, they tend to be fragile when used in concert, and brutally unforgiving when used alone. If you could undo stuff easily, suddenly the 'brutal, unforgiving' part goes away, and it would enable a much more relaxing, explorative atmosphere, while also meaning people don't have to do stuff like 'alias rm=mv -t ~/.Trash' or whatever.