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The book’s example is not the best. Green great dragons can absolutely exist, if great dragons were a breed of dragons, like great danes. In that case great wou

The book’s example is not the best. Green great dragons can absolutely exist, if great dragons were a breed of dragons, like great danes. In that case great would be a way more specific modifier of the noun dragons, as it defines a subgroup of the group of the noun. That’s why it can be closer, because it’s more specific than green, and our brain can definitively switch automatically to get this nuance in language, as soon as we asses that “great dragons” are a thing. It’s not about size and color in itself, it’s just that, generally speaking, size tends to be less specific than color in subgrouping a noun. This is also how we learn though trust: if I find the sentence and I trust who wrote that, I assume and therefore learn that Great Dragons are probably a breed of dragons.

Wiles_7 6y ago
That specific example probably originates from Tolkien. J. R. R. Tolkien: A Biography: > When [Tolkien] was about seven he began to compose his own story about a dragon. ‘I remember nothing about it except a philological fact,’ he recalled. ‘My mother said nothing about the dragon, but pointed out that one could not say “a green great dragon”, but had to say “a great green dragon”. I wondered why, and still do. The fact that I remember this is possibly significant, as I do not think I ever tried to write a story again for many years, and was taken up with language.’
- camillomiller 6y ago
  Interesting find! Thanks
StavrosK 6y ago
"Can't exist" doesn't mean "there's no way to make a valid sentence out of those words", it means "it'll sound wrong to native speakers". I remember the scientific paper that included the phrase "I smoke crack rocks" in the sentence "we observed vaporized iodide (I) erosion on soil in an experiment where we saw I smoke crack rocks.
mellosouls 6y ago
This is not a valid counter example. "Great" is capitalised here (in Great Dane) as it is now part of the name of the breed, rather than an adjective, whatever its origin.
- ithkuil 6y ago
  Do we have to capitalize the great white shark?
  - BrianOnHN 6y ago
    It's less about capitalzation as it is about being part of a given name.
  - jameshart 6y ago
    Wellackshually... Scientists prefer ‘white shark’ these days. There being no other smaller species of ‘white shark’ from which they need to distinguish.
jameshart 6y ago
The point being that, if you hear someone say ‘a green great dragon’, you understand the speaker to be referring to a kind of dragon called a ‘great dragon’. Because, to make sense in that order, ‘great’ can’t be merely a reference to the speaker’s opinion about the dragon (‘it’s grrrreat!’) or the size of it (‘great big enormous’), but instead a qualifier for a kind of dragon. That you can infer that ‘great’ connotes something different because of its position in the adjective sequence is an argument in favor of the idea that the sequencing is semantically meaningful, not against it.

Wiles_7 6y ago

That specific example probably originates from Tolkien. J. R. R. Tolkien: A Biography: > When [Tolkien] was about seven he began to compose his own story about a dragon. ‘I remember nothing about it except a philological fact,’ he recalled. ‘My mother said nothing about the dragon, but pointed out that one could not say “a green great dragon”, but had to say “a great green dragon”. I wondered why, and still do. The fact that I remember this is possibly significant, as I do not think I ever tried to write a story again for many years, and was taken up with language.’

camillomiller 6y ago
Interesting find! Thanks

StavrosK 6y ago

"Can't exist" doesn't mean "there's no way to make a valid sentence out of those words", it means "it'll sound wrong to native speakers". I remember the scientific paper that included the phrase "I smoke crack rocks" in the sentence "we observed vaporized iodide (I) erosion on soil in an experiment where we saw I smoke crack rocks.

mellosouls 6y ago

This is not a valid counter example. "Great" is capitalised here (in Great Dane) as it is now part of the name of the breed, rather than an adjective, whatever its origin.

ithkuil 6y ago
Do we have to capitalize the great white shark?
- BrianOnHN 6y ago
  It's less about capitalzation as it is about being part of a given name.
- jameshart 6y ago
  Wellackshually... Scientists prefer ‘white shark’ these days. There being no other smaller species of ‘white shark’ from which they need to distinguish.

jameshart 6y ago

The point being that, if you hear someone say ‘a green great dragon’, you understand the speaker to be referring to a kind of dragon called a ‘great dragon’. Because, to make sense in that order, ‘great’ can’t be merely a reference to the speaker’s opinion about the dragon (‘it’s grrrreat!’) or the size of it (‘great big enormous’), but instead a qualifier for a kind of dragon. That you can infer that ‘great’ connotes something different because of its position in the adjective sequence is an argument in favor of the idea that the sequencing is semantically meaningful, not against it.