4 ms·

I see these reddit bans referenced every now and then as evidence that censorship works. I think it's important to emphasize these bans are not evidence they sh

by Orou 6y ago

I see these reddit bans referenced every now and then as evidence that censorship works. I think it's important to emphasize these bans are not evidence they shutting down communities changed participants' minds about anything. Further, the paper states that "The empirical work in this paper suggests that when narrowly applied to small, specific groups, banning deviant hate groups can work to reduce and contain the behavior." Trump supporters are not a small group of people and they don't have a single 'meeting point' on the internet that can be banned to break them up. Let's just be careful about comparing strategies used to target niche internet hate groups with tens of millions of Trump supporters.

jessah 6y ago
I's not about changing the participants minds. It's about keeping them to radicalize more people by taking away reach.
- meowface 6y ago
  I suspect there could be a frequency vs. intensity trade-off there. Fewer total radicalizations, but of the ones that remain, they may intensify on average. The "radicalization expected value" so to speak might go up even if the frequency goes down. (This obviously isn't to suggest banning is never a solution, but trade-offs do have to be considered.)
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  There is nothing even remotely radical about questioning an election, which this makes a bannable offense.
  - krapp 6y ago
    They're not questioning an election, they're making baseless accusations of fraud. Conspiracy theories like Sharpiegate, hacked Dominion voting machines and Georgia election workers counting suitcases full of illegal ballots have been debunked. Trump's legal team has filed over 50 lawsuits to date, none of which have exposed any evidence of fraud or criminal conspiracy. The legitimate questioning is being done and the answer is, to an ever increasing degree of certainty, that Biden has won, and won legitimately. QAnon nuts claiming the election is a coup de tat by Red China or a satanic cabal of Democratic pedophiles are not engaged in honest, good faith attempts at validating the integrity of the electoral process.
    - abacadaba 6y ago
      > and Georgia election workers counting suitcases full of illegal ballots have been debunked citation needed
      - _kbh_ 6y ago
        https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/dec/04/facebook-posts/no-georgia-election-workers-didnt-kick-out-observe/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/dec/04/facebook-p... There you go.
        abacadaba 6y ago
        Ya but that debunking has been debunked https://thefederalist.com/2020/12/07/no-the-georgia-vote-counting-video-was-not-debunked-not-even-close/ https://thefederalist.com/2020/12/07/no-the-georgia-vote-cou... Partisan source? Maybe. But unfortunately the fact checkers have lost all credibility over the last few months by debunking things like, in the context of this article, hunter's laptop.
        krapp 6y ago
        Maybe you'll accept the credibility of the Republican lawmakers and election officials in Georgia who also consider those accusations of fraud to be baseless[0]. [0]https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2020/11/30/georgia-gop-officials-slam-election-conspiracy-theories-exploiting-the-emotions-of-trump-supporters/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2020/11/30/georgia...
        _kbh_ 6y ago
        The federalist itself has spread a lot fake news over the years so you may want a better source to debunk the republicans in the state who literally ran the election who are saying it wasn't fraudulent.
    - trident1000 6y ago
      This has all been debunked?: https://youtu.be/rri6flxaXww?t=4916 https://youtu.be/rri6flxaXww?t=4916 (from Phil Waldron) I'm not here to deny elections but I dont think much of it was including the machines going live on the net when Dominion said they didnt. They witnessed the packet traffic to international servers. With regards to "debunking" on sites like Politifact you need to be careful. For instance they say the Smartmatic technology was not used in states that are being challenged when thats just not true. The tech is the same but runs under different banners and is all owned by Dominion. Also they focus on if Hugo Chavez family owns Smartmatic as the thing to debunk. Obviously thats not the case or the main convincing argument that is even being made. Its that the technology was used to game elections in Venezuela and that adopted tech is used in elections around the world now (why else would it be acquired unless they wanted the tech). There are no code audits because Dominion claims IP protection. Does that mean election rigging is happening? Not necessarily. But people have every right to ask that question and you should ask it too no matter what side you're on.

by Orou 6y ago

jessah 6y ago

I's not about changing the participants minds. It's about keeping them to radicalize more people by taking away reach.

meowface 6y ago
I suspect there could be a frequency vs. intensity trade-off there. Fewer total radicalizations, but of the ones that remain, they may intensify on average. The "radicalization expected value" so to speak might go up even if the frequency goes down. (This obviously isn't to suggest banning is never a solution, but trade-offs do have to be considered.)
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
There is nothing even remotely radical about questioning an election, which this makes a bannable offense.
- krapp 6y ago
  They're not questioning an election, they're making baseless accusations of fraud. Conspiracy theories like Sharpiegate, hacked Dominion voting machines and Georgia election workers counting suitcases full of illegal ballots have been debunked. Trump's legal team has filed over 50 lawsuits to date, none of which have exposed any evidence of fraud or criminal conspiracy. The legitimate questioning is being done and the answer is, to an ever increasing degree of certainty, that Biden has won, and won legitimately. QAnon nuts claiming the election is a coup de tat by Red China or a satanic cabal of Democratic pedophiles are not engaged in honest, good faith attempts at validating the integrity of the electoral process.
  - abacadaba 6y ago
    > and Georgia election workers counting suitcases full of illegal ballots have been debunked citation needed
    - _kbh_ 6y ago
      https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/dec/04/facebook-posts/no-georgia-election-workers-didnt-kick-out-observe/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/dec/04/facebook-p... There you go.
      - abacadaba 6y ago
        Ya but that debunking has been debunked https://thefederalist.com/2020/12/07/no-the-georgia-vote-counting-video-was-not-debunked-not-even-close/ https://thefederalist.com/2020/12/07/no-the-georgia-vote-cou... Partisan source? Maybe. But unfortunately the fact checkers have lost all credibility over the last few months by debunking things like, in the context of this article, hunter's laptop.
        krapp 6y ago
        Maybe you'll accept the credibility of the Republican lawmakers and election officials in Georgia who also consider those accusations of fraud to be baseless[0]. [0]https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2020/11/30/georgia-gop-officials-slam-election-conspiracy-theories-exploiting-the-emotions-of-trump-supporters/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2020/11/30/georgia...
        _kbh_ 6y ago
        The federalist itself has spread a lot fake news over the years so you may want a better source to debunk the republicans in the state who literally ran the election who are saying it wasn't fraudulent.
  - trident1000 6y ago
    This has all been debunked?: https://youtu.be/rri6flxaXww?t=4916 https://youtu.be/rri6flxaXww?t=4916 (from Phil Waldron) I'm not here to deny elections but I dont think much of it was including the machines going live on the net when Dominion said they didnt. They witnessed the packet traffic to international servers. With regards to "debunking" on sites like Politifact you need to be careful. For instance they say the Smartmatic technology was not used in states that are being challenged when thats just not true. The tech is the same but runs under different banners and is all owned by Dominion. Also they focus on if Hugo Chavez family owns Smartmatic as the thing to debunk. Obviously thats not the case or the main convincing argument that is even being made. Its that the technology was used to game elections in Venezuela and that adopted tech is used in elections around the world now (why else would it be acquired unless they wanted the tech). There are no code audits because Dominion claims IP protection. Does that mean election rigging is happening? Not necessarily. But people have every right to ask that question and you should ask it too no matter what side you're on.