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It's my civic duty to take it as soon as it's offered to me, even if there's some minuscule chance that there will be an averse side effect. That said, I'll li

It's my civic duty to take it as soon as it's offered to me, even if there's some minuscule chance that there will be an averse side effect. That said, I'll likely be towards the end of the line given my health and occupation.

h3cate 6y ago
Why is it your civic duty? What will you having this vaccine do for anybody but yourself?
- progval 6y ago
  Lowers the risk you are infected and infect other people and/or take a bed in a crowded hospital
  - h3cate 6y ago
    Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic. Good point on the hospital bed point though! It will be interesting to see ICU data for each country to see how they're currently fairing - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
  - jolmg 6y ago
    > Lowers the risk you ... infect other people Not necessarily: > Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25298299 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25298299 People that don't know that might be confident they don't need to keep distance or wear a mask anymore.
    - h3cate 6y ago
      Prepare to be downvoted for providing evidence against the narrative..
      - jolmg 6y ago
        I think everyone agrees on priorities but nuance is lacking from comments and everyone just assumes the worst interpretation. EDIT: Though the behavior towards you just seems spiteful now.
    - XorNot 6y ago
      This is old news, at least one vaccine is reported to provide sterilizing immunity, so the expectation is swinging towards the idea that probably they all will. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31976-0/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
      - jolmg 6y ago
        > the impact of these COVID-19 vaccines on infection and thus transmission is not being assessed. Even if vaccines were able to confer protection from disease, they might not reduce transmission similarly. > Challenge studies in vaccinated primates showed reductions in pathology, symptoms, and viral load in the lower respiratory tract, but failed to elicit sterilising immunity in the upper airways. Sterilising immunity in the upper airways has been claimed for one vaccine, but peer-reviewed publication of these data are awaited. Italics are mine. > These observations suggest that we cannot assume COVID-19 vaccines, even if shown to be effective in reducing severity of disease, will reduce virus transmission to a comparable degree. The notion that COVID-19-vaccine-induced population immunity will allow a return to pre-COVID-19 “normalcy” might be based on illusory assumptions. I can't sense any tone of favorable expectation in the link you shared.
    - lukeschlather 6y ago
      It's still your civic duty to get the vaccine just like distancing and mask wearing. Just because it's not proven to be a silver bullet doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
      - jolmg 6y ago
        I never said otherwise. The reason why I'm backing h3cate and the reason why he probably spoke up is that the notion that this is a civic duty invites the idea that it's sure to protect other people, when it hasn't yet been proven to do so. Indeed, one should get it on the chance that it does, but I'm betting a lot of people will assume the vaccine suffices for others' protection.
        acqq 6y ago
        The vaccine probably won't make any vaccinated a guaranteed superhuman which 100% breaks the transmission: even with 95% efficacy, we know that 1 in 20 will get the symptoms, for the start, and we know that the virus has to replicate in the body, at least in the upper respiratory pathways, before the immune system fights it down, also in the bodies of the vaccinated. However, those who get the vaccine, by lowering their own chance to get sick, will contribute to the well-being of everybody: once most people are vaccinated the number of cases needing hospital has to eventually drop. If the amount of virus produced in the body of vaccinated drops just for some percentage, the chance of transmission in some occasions will somewhat drop, even if it won't be zero. That will help everybody. Still, there is reasonable probability that there will be a period of time when it will be hard to explain to many that they should keep behaving like potential virus carriers even after they received the vaccine (masks, distancing etc). If they do that then they will contribute to the earlier end of pandemic and directly and indirectly protect some vulnerable. By still behaving like potential carriers they will reduce already mentioned chance of transmission and contribute to health of everybody else. It's somehow non-intuitive. Also non-intuitive: some percentage of all vaccinated will with such behavior directly protect themselves too, simply because even 95% isn't 100% -- that 95% means one of 20 still gets sick, on average. Then it won't be the first time during this pandemics that "dumbing down" the message isn't the best way to communicate. Whoever cares about those who are most in danger, and even whoever just cares about the economy, should once again try to understand the nuances and then explain them to those who don't.
  - h3cate 6y ago
    The bed point is good, what's the current data for ICU bed space in your country?
    - dhruvrrp 6y ago
      My county has less than 15% ICU bed availability.
      - h3cate 6y ago
        And what was the average availability for the previous 5 years?
        dhruvrrp 6y ago
        It was hovering around 30-40% 2 months ago, and was around 56% in May. Unfortunately historical data is hard to find since most gov/hospital websites only seem to show covid related data.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        hcurtiss 6y ago
        But that's because the pandemic actually emptied out most hospitals. ICUs are not built for Easter Sunday. Here's an article with pre-pandemic numbers: "Although average ICU occupancy was only 68% in 2005, some hospitals, especially academic medical centers, regularly face occupancy levels exceeding 90% (Wunsch et al. 2013), often requiring the rationing of scarce critical care beds." http://www.elisalong.com/uploads/1/0/9/7/109701801/long_mathews_2017_-_the_boarding_patient.pdf http://www.elisalong.com/uploads/1/0/9/7/109701801/long_math...
        rsfern 6y ago
        Sounds like ICU capacity is roughly appropriate for normal-times peak demand to me. The average occupancy you quote is consistent with the “2 months ago” capacity quoted by GP.
  - filipkersey 6y ago
    ...No it doesn't. It only "decreases the likeliness of symptoms". It doesn't affect transmission.
    - progval 6y ago
      Other replies to my comment already mention it (and have sources).
- aplummer 6y ago
  Its a good question let me answer - some people can't get the vaccine. Right now, it's banned for people with allergies. Babies can't get it. For some people, they can never get it due to their immune system. Their only chance is never coming into contact with a contagious person, so that means as many of us need to get the vaccine as possible to ensure that doesn't happen.
  - h3cate 6y ago
    Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
  - Pamar 6y ago
    Can anyone clarify what "allergies" mean in this context? I have a (now really mild) allergy to some pollen; as s child it made me miserable for two months (late April to early June) with nose constantly running, puffy eyes. Now I barely sneeze twice a day and only in some specific areas... never got tested so I don't know which plant I am allergic to (and if it is the plant getting extinct or my body getting better at handling it). Would this prevent me from taking the vaccine?
    - h3cate 6y ago
      From what has been reported in the UK the people having reactions are those that have to carry epi pens. However I am not a doctor, somebody who's studied medicine for years will be able to give you more info
    - XorNot 6y ago
      Do you have a chicken egg allergy, or have had a significant reaction to any b other vaccine? The former and you probably can't take the vaccines being rolled out at all, the latter and you need to proceed cautiously.
- frankbreetz 6y ago
  It will help stop the spread
  - h3cate 6y ago
    Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
    - athriren 6y ago
      sure, but i don’t see how this could make it “worse”. as the vaccine is more widely understood this fact re pfizer vaccine will be messaged to the public. the people first vaccinated will be in health care, and anecdata (most of my extended family and friends across social backgrounds and regions of the country work in the field) indicates these people are, in the general case, diligent about social hygiene practices. a vaccinated person who is still wearing a mask when inside in poorly ventilated public spaces when not with their family unit in their home is no more dangerous to the public than someone doing all of that who is unvaccinated. vaccinated people have immunity ~10 days after vaccination. assuming vaccination of the population proceeds steadily, and everyone practices diligent social hygiene, eventually the pool of vaccinated people sink the R value below 1. it is at this point that we will be turning the corner. i will note that all of this applies to pfizer because their study design did not test asymptomatic trial participants. this means we know the pfizer vaccine helps people not get sick. however, i believe moderna did test all trial participants periodically even when asymptomatic and their measurements of effectiveness were on par.
      - h3cate 6y ago
        Sorry I should of been clearer, by worse I mean the virus living in more hosts. Not worse for us humans. I agree on the vaccinated Vs unvaccinated life point. Does that not depend on how the R number is calculated? Sure less people will be showing symptoms so less tests and less positive tests. We will not however know the true never of people carrying the virus. The R number may be growing after vaccination however we just don't show symptoms.
- AaronNewcomer 6y ago
  Same as a mask? Keep him from transmitting it to other people.
  - h3cate 6y ago
    Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
  - jolmg 6y ago
    Kind of, see other comment. There's no guarantee by Pfizer that the vaccine keeps people from transmitting. They've said that. It seems they've only tested that the one getting the vaccine doesn't develop symptoms. Hence h3cate's > What will you having this vaccine do for anybody but yourself? We don't know if the vaccine can substitute the mask for the time being.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      You mean like any vaccine? They’re CYAing because no vaccine is 100% effective. It’s that simple.
- w-j-w 6y ago
  You can't spread a disease if your immune system kills it on contact.
- blendergeek 6y ago
  Having the vaccine decreases the probability that I spread the virus.
  - h3cate 6y ago
    Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
- phased20 6y ago
  Assuming this is a good faith question: while this is not guaranteed, it is highly likely a vaccine will prevent disease transmission (given how the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines help create an antibody response to coronavirus's spike protein), breaking chains in viral spread. Edit: correction to better reflect the mRNA vaccine mechanism.
  - h3cate 6y ago
    Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
  - ketamine__ 6y ago
    Assuming this is a good faith response: Maybe and maybe not. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/coronavirus-nasal-vaccines.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/coronavirus-nasal-... > Without a strong mucosal response, injected vaccines may be less likely to produce so-called sterilizing immunity, a phenomenon in which a pathogen is purged from the body before it’s able to infect cells, Dr. Durbin said. Vaccinated people might be protected from severe disease, but could still be infected, experience mild symptoms and occasionally pass small quantities of the germ onto others.
    - travmatt 6y ago
      I’ve also read that levels of exposure inversely correlate to outcomes: all else being equal, being exposed to less virus leads to better outcomes.
- jariel 6y ago
  ? "What will you having this vaccine do for anybody but yourself ?" COVID is contagious meaning it's as much about those around you as it is yourself. Second, in order to beat COVID we have to have a certain immunity threshold i.e. 75% or whatever, meaning, your participation in that effort matters. It is our 'civic duty' and I'm proud that the top commenter (at the moment I write this) has put it in those terms because that's a good way to put it.
  - h3cate 6y ago
    Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
    - jessaustin 6y ago
      It wasn't necessary to copy/paste this eight times.
      - h3cate 6y ago
        Just replying to each conversation and I'm lazy so couldn't muster a unique response for each person :) I'm sorry if I offended you with my copy/pasting EDIT: One of my responses had a little extra tacked on so I'm deducting one apology from you
        jessaustin 6y ago
        If this were common practice on HN, HN would be pretty awful. If you've said something once in a thread, those who read the thread will read it. Are we at -1 apologies now? [EDIT:] we're square now, thanks...
        h3cate 6y ago
- aetimmes 6y ago
  * because there are people who, due to age or immuno-compromisation or allergic response, cannot safely take the vaccine, so those who can safely take it should help contribute to herd immunity * because there are many people out of work whose livelihoods depend on the types of establishments closed or restricted by COVID (restaurants, theaters, etc) * because safely interacting with other human beings in-person is generally good for mental health
  - h3cate 6y ago
    Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
  - chrismcb 6y ago
    How do you know if you cannot safely take the vaccine?
- UShouldBWorking 6y ago
  Virtue signal
petertodd 6y ago
It's my civic duty not to, because people are trying to make it mandatory and we have to set a precedent that mandating it is unacceptable. I honestly think I would have said otherwise a year ago. But after seeing the mishandling of COVID-19, I no longer have faith in my countries ability to use emergency powers scientifically.
- schmichael 6y ago
  You’re ignoring that you getting vaccinated is not about you, but about protecting others. As long as the R value is above 1, every person vaccinated is protecting others more than themselves. Even at 90% effectiveness herd immunity is critical to stopping the pandemic. I fully support people’s right to opt out of social goods like the vaccine, but I’m afraid you should be refused access to many social services your presence would threaten: schools, transit, libraries, etc. We accept that we have to get a license to legally drive a car on public streets, why not accept a vaccine to access public spaces during a pandemic? Societies already compel a number of behaviors for unrestricted participation, I don’t see vaccines during a pandemic as being particularly onerous. > no longer have faith in my country I don’t know what country you live in, but many countries have the same assessment of many vaccines. Even if you distrust one country there are likely many more positive assessments you can turn to.
  - petertodd 6y ago
    > You’re ignoring that you getting vaccinated is not about you, but about protecting others. No I'm not. I'm not at all worried about contracting covid. At my age and health, the science is very clear that COVID-19 poses almost no risk to me. The only reason I'd bother with a vaccine is to protect others. But protecting others doesn't just mean protecting others now. It also means protecting others in the future. Bad government is a _serious_ risk. > I don’t know what country you live in, but many countries have the same assessment of many vaccines. I wasn't talking about science in relation to vaccines. I was talking about science in relation to the entire policy. I do not believe my government (Canada) is making decisions based on science in its use of emergency powers in general. That's pretty clear by the fact that they're unable to justify so many of the decisions made with actual numbers and models. Emergency powers are dangerous tools. We hope they get reserved for situations where the benefit is worth the risk. But after seeing how badly, and unscientifically. government has handled the entire pandemic, I want to see those emergency powers further restricted, so they aren't so easy to use in the future. edit: Note how Trump has told the FDA chief that his options were to approve the Pfizer vaccine or resign: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/12/11/trump-stephen-hahn-fda-covid-vaccine/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/12/11/trump-steph... What a terrible precedent for science.
timerol 6y ago
I completely agree. The economy will recover when the pandemic ends, and I am going to contribute to the end of the pandemic in any way I can. Then we can end the massive business closures and massive eviction crisis that we're currently seeing. Getting the virus under control is how we help the economy. It's not a trade-off between the two, it's both or neither.
loosescrews 6y ago
I believe it is your civic duty to not go around infecting people. There is more than one way to achieve that.
- davidw 6y ago
  Yes, of course, and I'm doing that. But staying cooped up at home and not going out at all is pretty stressful in terms of mental health. I can't wait to be able to go to restaurants and travel and see my parents and all of that.
- zahma 6y ago
  You’re ignoring the knock-on effects of life during a pandemic. Vaccination is the only way to regain normalcy.
- jariel 6y ago
  You can lock yourself in your home and literally never go near another human being, but is that really an alternative? Because even going to the grocery store has risk. So yes: never leave your home and never have company, or get a vaccine. Think about it like one of the many vaccines you got as a kid and never, ever worried about because they never took up any mental space for you to be concerned about it.

h3cate 6y ago

Why is it your civic duty? What will you having this vaccine do for anybody but yourself?

progval 6y ago
Lowers the risk you are infected and infect other people and/or take a bed in a crowded hospital
- h3cate 6y ago
  Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic. Good point on the hospital bed point though! It will be interesting to see ICU data for each country to see how they're currently fairing - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
- jolmg 6y ago
  > Lowers the risk you ... infect other people Not necessarily: > Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25298299 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25298299 People that don't know that might be confident they don't need to keep distance or wear a mask anymore.
  - h3cate 6y ago
    Prepare to be downvoted for providing evidence against the narrative..
    - jolmg 6y ago
      I think everyone agrees on priorities but nuance is lacking from comments and everyone just assumes the worst interpretation. EDIT: Though the behavior towards you just seems spiteful now.
  - XorNot 6y ago
    This is old news, at least one vaccine is reported to provide sterilizing immunity, so the expectation is swinging towards the idea that probably they all will. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31976-0/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
    - jolmg 6y ago
      > the impact of these COVID-19 vaccines on infection and thus transmission is not being assessed. Even if vaccines were able to confer protection from disease, they might not reduce transmission similarly. > Challenge studies in vaccinated primates showed reductions in pathology, symptoms, and viral load in the lower respiratory tract, but failed to elicit sterilising immunity in the upper airways. Sterilising immunity in the upper airways has been claimed for one vaccine, but peer-reviewed publication of these data are awaited. Italics are mine. > These observations suggest that we cannot assume COVID-19 vaccines, even if shown to be effective in reducing severity of disease, will reduce virus transmission to a comparable degree. The notion that COVID-19-vaccine-induced population immunity will allow a return to pre-COVID-19 “normalcy” might be based on illusory assumptions. I can't sense any tone of favorable expectation in the link you shared.
  - lukeschlather 6y ago
    It's still your civic duty to get the vaccine just like distancing and mask wearing. Just because it's not proven to be a silver bullet doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
    - jolmg 6y ago
      I never said otherwise. The reason why I'm backing h3cate and the reason why he probably spoke up is that the notion that this is a civic duty invites the idea that it's sure to protect other people, when it hasn't yet been proven to do so. Indeed, one should get it on the chance that it does, but I'm betting a lot of people will assume the vaccine suffices for others' protection.
      - acqq 6y ago
        The vaccine probably won't make any vaccinated a guaranteed superhuman which 100% breaks the transmission: even with 95% efficacy, we know that 1 in 20 will get the symptoms, for the start, and we know that the virus has to replicate in the body, at least in the upper respiratory pathways, before the immune system fights it down, also in the bodies of the vaccinated. However, those who get the vaccine, by lowering their own chance to get sick, will contribute to the well-being of everybody: once most people are vaccinated the number of cases needing hospital has to eventually drop. If the amount of virus produced in the body of vaccinated drops just for some percentage, the chance of transmission in some occasions will somewhat drop, even if it won't be zero. That will help everybody. Still, there is reasonable probability that there will be a period of time when it will be hard to explain to many that they should keep behaving like potential virus carriers even after they received the vaccine (masks, distancing etc). If they do that then they will contribute to the earlier end of pandemic and directly and indirectly protect some vulnerable. By still behaving like potential carriers they will reduce already mentioned chance of transmission and contribute to health of everybody else. It's somehow non-intuitive. Also non-intuitive: some percentage of all vaccinated will with such behavior directly protect themselves too, simply because even 95% isn't 100% -- that 95% means one of 20 still gets sick, on average. Then it won't be the first time during this pandemics that "dumbing down" the message isn't the best way to communicate. Whoever cares about those who are most in danger, and even whoever just cares about the economy, should once again try to understand the nuances and then explain them to those who don't.
- h3cate 6y ago
  The bed point is good, what's the current data for ICU bed space in your country?
  - dhruvrrp 6y ago
    My county has less than 15% ICU bed availability.
    - h3cate 6y ago
      And what was the average availability for the previous 5 years?
      - dhruvrrp 6y ago
        It was hovering around 30-40% 2 months ago, and was around 56% in May. Unfortunately historical data is hard to find since most gov/hospital websites only seem to show covid related data.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        hcurtiss 6y ago
        But that's because the pandemic actually emptied out most hospitals. ICUs are not built for Easter Sunday. Here's an article with pre-pandemic numbers: "Although average ICU occupancy was only 68% in 2005, some hospitals, especially academic medical centers, regularly face occupancy levels exceeding 90% (Wunsch et al. 2013), often requiring the rationing of scarce critical care beds." http://www.elisalong.com/uploads/1/0/9/7/109701801/long_mathews_2017_-_the_boarding_patient.pdf http://www.elisalong.com/uploads/1/0/9/7/109701801/long_math...
        rsfern 6y ago
        Sounds like ICU capacity is roughly appropriate for normal-times peak demand to me. The average occupancy you quote is consistent with the “2 months ago” capacity quoted by GP.
- filipkersey 6y ago
  ...No it doesn't. It only "decreases the likeliness of symptoms". It doesn't affect transmission.
  - progval 6y ago
    Other replies to my comment already mention it (and have sources).
aplummer 6y ago
Its a good question let me answer - some people can't get the vaccine. Right now, it's banned for people with allergies. Babies can't get it. For some people, they can never get it due to their immune system. Their only chance is never coming into contact with a contagious person, so that means as many of us need to get the vaccine as possible to ensure that doesn't happen.
- h3cate 6y ago
  Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
- Pamar 6y ago
  Can anyone clarify what "allergies" mean in this context? I have a (now really mild) allergy to some pollen; as s child it made me miserable for two months (late April to early June) with nose constantly running, puffy eyes. Now I barely sneeze twice a day and only in some specific areas... never got tested so I don't know which plant I am allergic to (and if it is the plant getting extinct or my body getting better at handling it). Would this prevent me from taking the vaccine?
  - h3cate 6y ago
    From what has been reported in the UK the people having reactions are those that have to carry epi pens. However I am not a doctor, somebody who's studied medicine for years will be able to give you more info
  - XorNot 6y ago
    Do you have a chicken egg allergy, or have had a significant reaction to any b other vaccine? The former and you probably can't take the vaccines being rolled out at all, the latter and you need to proceed cautiously.
frankbreetz 6y ago
It will help stop the spread
- h3cate 6y ago
  Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
  - athriren 6y ago
    sure, but i don’t see how this could make it “worse”. as the vaccine is more widely understood this fact re pfizer vaccine will be messaged to the public. the people first vaccinated will be in health care, and anecdata (most of my extended family and friends across social backgrounds and regions of the country work in the field) indicates these people are, in the general case, diligent about social hygiene practices. a vaccinated person who is still wearing a mask when inside in poorly ventilated public spaces when not with their family unit in their home is no more dangerous to the public than someone doing all of that who is unvaccinated. vaccinated people have immunity ~10 days after vaccination. assuming vaccination of the population proceeds steadily, and everyone practices diligent social hygiene, eventually the pool of vaccinated people sink the R value below 1. it is at this point that we will be turning the corner. i will note that all of this applies to pfizer because their study design did not test asymptomatic trial participants. this means we know the pfizer vaccine helps people not get sick. however, i believe moderna did test all trial participants periodically even when asymptomatic and their measurements of effectiveness were on par.
    - h3cate 6y ago
      Sorry I should of been clearer, by worse I mean the virus living in more hosts. Not worse for us humans. I agree on the vaccinated Vs unvaccinated life point. Does that not depend on how the R number is calculated? Sure less people will be showing symptoms so less tests and less positive tests. We will not however know the true never of people carrying the virus. The R number may be growing after vaccination however we just don't show symptoms.
AaronNewcomer 6y ago
Same as a mask? Keep him from transmitting it to other people.
- h3cate 6y ago
  Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
- jolmg 6y ago
  Kind of, see other comment. There's no guarantee by Pfizer that the vaccine keeps people from transmitting. They've said that. It seems they've only tested that the one getting the vaccine doesn't develop symptoms. Hence h3cate's > What will you having this vaccine do for anybody but yourself? We don't know if the vaccine can substitute the mask for the time being.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    You mean like any vaccine? They’re CYAing because no vaccine is 100% effective. It’s that simple.
w-j-w 6y ago
You can't spread a disease if your immune system kills it on contact.
blendergeek 6y ago
Having the vaccine decreases the probability that I spread the virus.
- h3cate 6y ago
  Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
phased20 6y ago
Assuming this is a good faith question: while this is not guaranteed, it is highly likely a vaccine will prevent disease transmission (given how the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines help create an antibody response to coronavirus's spike protein), breaking chains in viral spread. Edit: correction to better reflect the mRNA vaccine mechanism.
- h3cate 6y ago
  Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
- ketamine__ 6y ago
  Assuming this is a good faith response: Maybe and maybe not. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/coronavirus-nasal-vaccines.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/coronavirus-nasal-... > Without a strong mucosal response, injected vaccines may be less likely to produce so-called sterilizing immunity, a phenomenon in which a pathogen is purged from the body before it’s able to infect cells, Dr. Durbin said. Vaccinated people might be protected from severe disease, but could still be infected, experience mild symptoms and occasionally pass small quantities of the germ onto others.
  - travmatt 6y ago
    I’ve also read that levels of exposure inversely correlate to outcomes: all else being equal, being exposed to less virus leads to better outcomes.
jariel 6y ago
? "What will you having this vaccine do for anybody but yourself ?" COVID is contagious meaning it's as much about those around you as it is yourself. Second, in order to beat COVID we have to have a certain immunity threshold i.e. 75% or whatever, meaning, your participation in that effort matters. It is our 'civic duty' and I'm proud that the top commenter (at the moment I write this) has put it in those terms because that's a good way to put it.
- h3cate 6y ago
  Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    It wasn't necessary to copy/paste this eight times.
    - h3cate 6y ago
      Just replying to each conversation and I'm lazy so couldn't muster a unique response for each person :) I'm sorry if I offended you with my copy/pasting EDIT: One of my responses had a little extra tacked on so I'm deducting one apology from you
      - jessaustin 6y ago
        If this were common practice on HN, HN would be pretty awful. If you've said something once in a thread, those who read the thread will read it. Are we at -1 apologies now? [EDIT:] we're square now, thanks...
        h3cate 6y ago
aetimmes 6y ago
* because there are people who, due to age or immuno-compromisation or allergic response, cannot safely take the vaccine, so those who can safely take it should help contribute to herd immunity * because there are many people out of work whose livelihoods depend on the types of establishments closed or restricted by COVID (restaurants, theaters, etc) * because safely interacting with other human beings in-person is generally good for mental health
- h3cate 6y ago
  Hate to tell you this but early thinking is that the vaccine does not stop you from carrying or spreading the disease. If anything it will make the spread worse as more people will be asymptomatic - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1369992/Does-Covid-vaccine-stop-transmission-evg/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/he...
- chrismcb 6y ago
  How do you know if you cannot safely take the vaccine?
UShouldBWorking 6y ago
Virtue signal

petertodd 6y ago

It's my civic duty not to, because people are trying to make it mandatory and we have to set a precedent that mandating it is unacceptable. I honestly think I would have said otherwise a year ago. But after seeing the mishandling of COVID-19, I no longer have faith in my countries ability to use emergency powers scientifically.

schmichael 6y ago
You’re ignoring that you getting vaccinated is not about you, but about protecting others. As long as the R value is above 1, every person vaccinated is protecting others more than themselves. Even at 90% effectiveness herd immunity is critical to stopping the pandemic. I fully support people’s right to opt out of social goods like the vaccine, but I’m afraid you should be refused access to many social services your presence would threaten: schools, transit, libraries, etc. We accept that we have to get a license to legally drive a car on public streets, why not accept a vaccine to access public spaces during a pandemic? Societies already compel a number of behaviors for unrestricted participation, I don’t see vaccines during a pandemic as being particularly onerous. > no longer have faith in my country I don’t know what country you live in, but many countries have the same assessment of many vaccines. Even if you distrust one country there are likely many more positive assessments you can turn to.
- petertodd 6y ago
  > You’re ignoring that you getting vaccinated is not about you, but about protecting others. No I'm not. I'm not at all worried about contracting covid. At my age and health, the science is very clear that COVID-19 poses almost no risk to me. The only reason I'd bother with a vaccine is to protect others. But protecting others doesn't just mean protecting others now. It also means protecting others in the future. Bad government is a _serious_ risk. > I don’t know what country you live in, but many countries have the same assessment of many vaccines. I wasn't talking about science in relation to vaccines. I was talking about science in relation to the entire policy. I do not believe my government (Canada) is making decisions based on science in its use of emergency powers in general. That's pretty clear by the fact that they're unable to justify so many of the decisions made with actual numbers and models. Emergency powers are dangerous tools. We hope they get reserved for situations where the benefit is worth the risk. But after seeing how badly, and unscientifically. government has handled the entire pandemic, I want to see those emergency powers further restricted, so they aren't so easy to use in the future. edit: Note how Trump has told the FDA chief that his options were to approve the Pfizer vaccine or resign: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/12/11/trump-stephen-hahn-fda-covid-vaccine/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/12/11/trump-steph... What a terrible precedent for science.

timerol 6y ago

I completely agree. The economy will recover when the pandemic ends, and I am going to contribute to the end of the pandemic in any way I can. Then we can end the massive business closures and massive eviction crisis that we're currently seeing. Getting the virus under control is how we help the economy. It's not a trade-off between the two, it's both or neither.

loosescrews 6y ago

I believe it is your civic duty to not go around infecting people. There is more than one way to achieve that.

davidw 6y ago
Yes, of course, and I'm doing that. But staying cooped up at home and not going out at all is pretty stressful in terms of mental health. I can't wait to be able to go to restaurants and travel and see my parents and all of that.
zahma 6y ago
You’re ignoring the knock-on effects of life during a pandemic. Vaccination is the only way to regain normalcy.
jariel 6y ago
You can lock yourself in your home and literally never go near another human being, but is that really an alternative? Because even going to the grocery store has risk. So yes: never leave your home and never have company, or get a vaccine. Think about it like one of the many vaccines you got as a kid and never, ever worried about because they never took up any mental space for you to be concerned about it.