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> I'm saying the PHP community has certain values and approaches problems with a certain perspective What are those values and what is that perspective? Your a

> I'm saying the PHP community has certain values and approaches problems with a certain perspective What are those values and what is that perspective? Your argument is getting rather hand-wavy. I'm not entirely sure what I would be arguing if I attempted to disagree. Without a more concrete formulation my current hypothesis is that you are simply disguising your ignorance as projection.

afarrell 6y ago
If you attempted to disagree, you would have to argue one of the following: A. The following is not a common perspective among the PHP community: "Problems do not change based on the language chosen to solve them. Inability to use a tool is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself." B. That perspective has absolutely zero impact whatsoever on the choices of tooling, frameworks, automated tests, and code found in an unknown team's PHP codebase. C. Whatever impact that perspective does have on the differences between a Python codebase and a PHP codebase will not meaningfully impact the productivity of /u/afarrell. D. Therefore, it cannot be the right personal choice for /u/afarrell or another developer to avoid PHP. Do not leave money on the table for /u/kingdomcome50 or /u/tux. ------------------------------------------ If your response to this is "Huh? Sure, whatever. Different people are different. Make your own personal choices. It's a free country." then that is 80% of my point. The other 20% is: Lack of self-knowledge and the inability to give/take a rejection will lead you to do things that are not healthy for you. Don't eat lasagna if you're lactose intolerant. Can we please stop acting like 'I do not want to write code in X language' is a personal attack on the intelligence of those who _do_ work in X language?
- kingdomcome50 6y ago
  No one is acting. The question: > When I read comments coming from people who don't use PHP which are always negative or condescending, I wonder - how do you imagine programmers who use PHP are like? Your answer: > I imagine programmers who do not place a high value on the impact that their tools have on their ability to think through problems effectively Even in the most charitable of circumstances it's hard to read your words in a way that isn't a slight against someone who chooses PHP. Especially when taken in the context of the discussion to which you are responding. And even more so because you have yet to substantiate (or even define) that claim in any meaningful way. I have no problem with someone who doesn't like PHP (or any language). I don't particularly like PHP. And you know what? I hate python! But I am not making sweeping generalizations about those who program in python and whether or not they value their "ability to think through problems effectively"[0]. Mostly because that claim would make no sense at all... It's hard to rationalize your answer above to mean anything like "Don't eat lasagna if you're lactose intolerant", so forgive me when I say that you are the one acting. Hey! I get it. You don't like PHP and you took a cheap shot at it. We all do it. The "PHP sucks" trope is hard to resist! But don't act like that isn't what happened. Have some self-knowledge and take the rejection. It's healthier that way. [0] or import a file in a sane way :)
  - afarrell 6y ago
    > you have yet to substantiate (or even define) that claim in any meaningful way. Sure. To define my claim more clearly: 1. There is a set Q (Programmers who believe that tools have a negligible impact on a programmer's ability to use that tool to think through problems) A set Q's belief in the low impact of tools is expressed by statements like: - "You still have to figure the problem out before solving it with algorithms. No language or framework will help you do that." - "you are leveling a criticism at yourself and your own inability to use a tool. This is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself" - "The 'problems' do not change based on which language is chosen to solve them." 2. There is a set P (programmers who prefer to choose PHP) 3. My first claim is that a member of set P is likely to also be a member of set Q. PHP developers are likely to believe the things that people in this very subthread are saying. Do you still find my first claim unclear, insufficiently-supported, or offensive?
    - kingdomcome50 6y ago
      What does a "tool that allows you to think through problems" look like? This claim is unsubstantiated. You have provided nothing to discredit an assertion that no such tool exists, and certainly haven't provided any criteria by which your claim could be falsified. Your claim is: 1. Such a tool(s) exists -- how can I know? 2. PHP is not one of these tools -- why not? 3. PHP practitioners don't value these tools -- huh? It's a total non-sequitur. Your criticism reads as "PHP solves problems differently than how I want to solve them". That is a totally reasonable opinion to hold (many do)! That's not really a reflection of PHP, it's a reflection of yourself. And that's okay! You don't have to like PHP. But it is a little offensive to try to justify your preferences in a way that passes sweeping judgement over anyone who programs in PHP. Especially when your argument insinuates that PHP programmers must have a deficit in their ability to think through problems...
      - afarrell 6y ago
        > Your criticism reads as "PHP solves problems differently than how I want to solve them" Fantastic. Then I am communicating my intent. > You have provided nothing to discredit an assertion that no such tool exists I don't have to. I'm only saying that you think no such tool exists and I think think that (for me at least) such tools do exist. > Especially when your argument insinuates that PHP programmers must have a deficit in their ability to think through problems... It only insinuates that if you edit my sentence to remove the words "the impact that their tools have on" from my sentence.

afarrell 6y ago

If you attempted to disagree, you would have to argue one of the following: A. The following is not a common perspective among the PHP community: "Problems do not change based on the language chosen to solve them. Inability to use a tool is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself." B. That perspective has absolutely zero impact whatsoever on the choices of tooling, frameworks, automated tests, and code found in an unknown team's PHP codebase. C. Whatever impact that perspective does have on the differences between a Python codebase and a PHP codebase will not meaningfully impact the productivity of /u/afarrell. D. Therefore, it cannot be the right personal choice for /u/afarrell or another developer to avoid PHP. Do not leave money on the table for /u/kingdomcome50 or /u/tux. ------------------------------------------ If your response to this is "Huh? Sure, whatever. Different people are different. Make your own personal choices. It's a free country." then that is 80% of my point. The other 20% is: Lack of self-knowledge and the inability to give/take a rejection will lead you to do things that are not healthy for you. Don't eat lasagna if you're lactose intolerant. Can we please stop acting like 'I do not want to write code in X language' is a personal attack on the intelligence of those who _do_ work in X language?

kingdomcome50 6y ago
No one is acting. The question: > When I read comments coming from people who don't use PHP which are always negative or condescending, I wonder - how do you imagine programmers who use PHP are like? Your answer: > I imagine programmers who do not place a high value on the impact that their tools have on their ability to think through problems effectively Even in the most charitable of circumstances it's hard to read your words in a way that isn't a slight against someone who chooses PHP. Especially when taken in the context of the discussion to which you are responding. And even more so because you have yet to substantiate (or even define) that claim in any meaningful way. I have no problem with someone who doesn't like PHP (or any language). I don't particularly like PHP. And you know what? I hate python! But I am not making sweeping generalizations about those who program in python and whether or not they value their "ability to think through problems effectively"[0]. Mostly because that claim would make no sense at all... It's hard to rationalize your answer above to mean anything like "Don't eat lasagna if you're lactose intolerant", so forgive me when I say that you are the one acting. Hey! I get it. You don't like PHP and you took a cheap shot at it. We all do it. The "PHP sucks" trope is hard to resist! But don't act like that isn't what happened. Have some self-knowledge and take the rejection. It's healthier that way. [0] or import a file in a sane way :)
- afarrell 6y ago
  > you have yet to substantiate (or even define) that claim in any meaningful way. Sure. To define my claim more clearly: 1. There is a set Q (Programmers who believe that tools have a negligible impact on a programmer's ability to use that tool to think through problems) A set Q's belief in the low impact of tools is expressed by statements like: - "You still have to figure the problem out before solving it with algorithms. No language or framework will help you do that." - "you are leveling a criticism at yourself and your own inability to use a tool. This is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself" - "The 'problems' do not change based on which language is chosen to solve them." 2. There is a set P (programmers who prefer to choose PHP) 3. My first claim is that a member of set P is likely to also be a member of set Q. PHP developers are likely to believe the things that people in this very subthread are saying. Do you still find my first claim unclear, insufficiently-supported, or offensive?
  - kingdomcome50 6y ago
    What does a "tool that allows you to think through problems" look like? This claim is unsubstantiated. You have provided nothing to discredit an assertion that no such tool exists, and certainly haven't provided any criteria by which your claim could be falsified. Your claim is: 1. Such a tool(s) exists -- how can I know? 2. PHP is not one of these tools -- why not? 3. PHP practitioners don't value these tools -- huh? It's a total non-sequitur. Your criticism reads as "PHP solves problems differently than how I want to solve them". That is a totally reasonable opinion to hold (many do)! That's not really a reflection of PHP, it's a reflection of yourself. And that's okay! You don't have to like PHP. But it is a little offensive to try to justify your preferences in a way that passes sweeping judgement over anyone who programs in PHP. Especially when your argument insinuates that PHP programmers must have a deficit in their ability to think through problems...
    - afarrell 6y ago
      > Your criticism reads as "PHP solves problems differently than how I want to solve them" Fantastic. Then I am communicating my intent. > You have provided nothing to discredit an assertion that no such tool exists I don't have to. I'm only saying that you think no such tool exists and I think think that (for me at least) such tools do exist. > Especially when your argument insinuates that PHP programmers must have a deficit in their ability to think through problems... It only insinuates that if you edit my sentence to remove the words "the impact that their tools have on" from my sentence.