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Question—have there historically been any comparable vaccines whose problems have become apparent long after the shot (> 6 months) while having seemed fine befo

Question—have there historically been any comparable vaccines whose problems have become apparent long after the shot (> 6 months) while having seemed fine before that?

mongol 6y ago
Comparable, I don't know. But during the swine flue influenza, the Swedish government rolled out a large vaccination campaign, encouraging everyone to get vaccinated. Unfortunately, it turned out that children in a certain age could get chronic narcolepsy from the vaccine Pandemrix. About 230 children have been reported suspected to get this side effect from the vaccine.
- jnurmine 6y ago
  Pandemrix caused many cases of narcolepsia not only in Sweden, but in Finland too. (And other countries, but in lesser numbers) Apparently there are two types of narcolepsia, type 1 is an autoimmune reaction against a hormone which regulates wakefulness and sleep. Pandemrix caused the type 1 in some people. The whole situation is quite well known in Sweden and Finland. Over the years, there have been news articles and documentaries on TV, and so on. It is very sad to see young children injured for life because of a vaccine which was supposed to be safe. The majority of the cases got symptoms in a few months, but some after 1.5 years. To crown this whole debacle, internal GSK documents with signals of safety concerns were ignored (Pandemrix adverse effects were compared to an almost identical vaccine called Arepanrix). [1] I took the Pandemrix back in the days. I'm definitely not an "anti-vaxxer", but sorry, I won't be the first in line for another rushed pandemia vaccine. [1] https://www.fiercepharma.com/vaccines/glaxosmithkline-fails-to-warn-pandemic-flu-vaccine-s-alarming-safety-signal-bmj-report https://www.fiercepharma.com/vaccines/glaxosmithkline-fails-... Edit: reword sentence
  - pgalvin 6y ago
    Interesting fact; the vaccine probably didn’t increase rates of Narcolepsy at all https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcoleps...
    - jnurmine 6y ago
      ...in the USA. And actually, EMA has similar information on their pages on the whole Europe level. But that is beside the point. The point is not the H1N1 vaccines used in the USA in general, the point is not Arenaprix, Focetria or even Pandemrix used on populations of non-Finnish ancestry, and the point is not the use of adjuvants in general. The point is the problem which GSK's Pandemrix used specifically in Sweden and Finland created. If you read that page, it refers to a paper from 2018. If you look closely, 4 authors received money from GSK, but it is not relevant. The relevant parts are that the paper: 1. Actually found increased rates in Sweden, "Other than elevated narcolepsy IRs in the period after vaccination campaigns in Sweden, we did not find..." 2. Did not examine Finland at all. The most impacted country was skipped since it was the other signalling country. This may seem weird, but the purpose was to establish whether Pandemrix and/or other H1N1 vaccinations were generally safe elsewhere. And, so, yes. There is no conspiracy, in general, H1N1 vaccinations are safe, for most people. However, let us now go to the specifics. There were and are unfortunate Finnish and Swedish children, who have HLA DQB1*06:02 and who, together with the proteins present in GSK's Pandemrix, possibly in combination with exposure to A(H1N1), developed narcolepsy because their orexin-producing cells in the hypothalamus were somehow damaged through an autoimmune response. So, interesting fact: use of Pandemrix increased narcolepsy rates in Finland and Sweden. This connection was due to the genetic specifics of Finns and the contents of the vaccine itself. My point, which I want to re-iterate, is this: these kinds of connections cannot be seen with some months of clinical testing, especially not when there is an immense pressure to succeed. Any company getting problems with their vaccine would see their stock price collapse. I saw and remember what happened the last time. Now I want to see more testing before I commit.
  - mongol 6y ago
    Agreed. "The Pandemrix experience" is fresh enough in people's mind here that it surely will decrease willingness to be vaccinated against Covid. I will not rush to get it, but if for example I could no longer work from home, I would get it then.
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  Oh wow I see, thanks for the pointer! Looking it up now, it seems the increased risk was 1 in 18400, or 0.005%. [1] So I guess it was rare enough that it could easily not have shown up during trials either. One key point in my question that I'm stuck on, though, if you happen to know the answer: how long did the effects take to become apparent in those children? Were they immediate or did they show up long after vaccination? (I'm mainly wondering how long people should expect to wait before side effects become apparent.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemrix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemrix
  - mongol 6y ago
    I don't know but from what I recall at the time, it became news after most people were already vaccinated. It was long enough that it was too late to act on it in a real sense.
    - mehrdadn 6y ago
      Ouch, okay thanks!
- pgalvin 6y ago
  This actually isn’t really true. Europe jumped the gun out of caution, but multiple later studies have found no link. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcoleps...
  - jnurmine 6y ago
    Please see my reply to your other comment with the same link. There is a link in Finland and Sweden with narcolepsy among people who have HLA-DQB1*06:02 and who got Pandemrix.
  - mongol 6y ago
    Except in Sweden, which I talked about. Read your own citations before making statements about truth.

Question—have there historically been any comparable vaccines whose problems have become apparent long after the shot (> 6 months) while having seemed fine before that?

mongol 6y ago

Comparable, I don't know. But during the swine flue influenza, the Swedish government rolled out a large vaccination campaign, encouraging everyone to get vaccinated. Unfortunately, it turned out that children in a certain age could get chronic narcolepsy from the vaccine Pandemrix. About 230 children have been reported suspected to get this side effect from the vaccine.

jnurmine 6y ago
Pandemrix caused many cases of narcolepsia not only in Sweden, but in Finland too. (And other countries, but in lesser numbers) Apparently there are two types of narcolepsia, type 1 is an autoimmune reaction against a hormone which regulates wakefulness and sleep. Pandemrix caused the type 1 in some people. The whole situation is quite well known in Sweden and Finland. Over the years, there have been news articles and documentaries on TV, and so on. It is very sad to see young children injured for life because of a vaccine which was supposed to be safe. The majority of the cases got symptoms in a few months, but some after 1.5 years. To crown this whole debacle, internal GSK documents with signals of safety concerns were ignored (Pandemrix adverse effects were compared to an almost identical vaccine called Arepanrix). [1] I took the Pandemrix back in the days. I'm definitely not an "anti-vaxxer", but sorry, I won't be the first in line for another rushed pandemia vaccine. [1] https://www.fiercepharma.com/vaccines/glaxosmithkline-fails-to-warn-pandemic-flu-vaccine-s-alarming-safety-signal-bmj-report https://www.fiercepharma.com/vaccines/glaxosmithkline-fails-... Edit: reword sentence
- pgalvin 6y ago
  Interesting fact; the vaccine probably didn’t increase rates of Narcolepsy at all https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcoleps...
  - jnurmine 6y ago
    ...in the USA. And actually, EMA has similar information on their pages on the whole Europe level. But that is beside the point. The point is not the H1N1 vaccines used in the USA in general, the point is not Arenaprix, Focetria or even Pandemrix used on populations of non-Finnish ancestry, and the point is not the use of adjuvants in general. The point is the problem which GSK's Pandemrix used specifically in Sweden and Finland created. If you read that page, it refers to a paper from 2018. If you look closely, 4 authors received money from GSK, but it is not relevant. The relevant parts are that the paper: 1. Actually found increased rates in Sweden, "Other than elevated narcolepsy IRs in the period after vaccination campaigns in Sweden, we did not find..." 2. Did not examine Finland at all. The most impacted country was skipped since it was the other signalling country. This may seem weird, but the purpose was to establish whether Pandemrix and/or other H1N1 vaccinations were generally safe elsewhere. And, so, yes. There is no conspiracy, in general, H1N1 vaccinations are safe, for most people. However, let us now go to the specifics. There were and are unfortunate Finnish and Swedish children, who have HLA DQB1*06:02 and who, together with the proteins present in GSK's Pandemrix, possibly in combination with exposure to A(H1N1), developed narcolepsy because their orexin-producing cells in the hypothalamus were somehow damaged through an autoimmune response. So, interesting fact: use of Pandemrix increased narcolepsy rates in Finland and Sweden. This connection was due to the genetic specifics of Finns and the contents of the vaccine itself. My point, which I want to re-iterate, is this: these kinds of connections cannot be seen with some months of clinical testing, especially not when there is an immense pressure to succeed. Any company getting problems with their vaccine would see their stock price collapse. I saw and remember what happened the last time. Now I want to see more testing before I commit.
- mongol 6y ago
  Agreed. "The Pandemrix experience" is fresh enough in people's mind here that it surely will decrease willingness to be vaccinated against Covid. I will not rush to get it, but if for example I could no longer work from home, I would get it then.
mehrdadn 6y ago
Oh wow I see, thanks for the pointer! Looking it up now, it seems the increased risk was 1 in 18400, or 0.005%. [1] So I guess it was rare enough that it could easily not have shown up during trials either. One key point in my question that I'm stuck on, though, if you happen to know the answer: how long did the effects take to become apparent in those children? Were they immediate or did they show up long after vaccination? (I'm mainly wondering how long people should expect to wait before side effects become apparent.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemrix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemrix
- mongol 6y ago
  I don't know but from what I recall at the time, it became news after most people were already vaccinated. It was long enough that it was too late to act on it in a real sense.
  - mehrdadn 6y ago
    Ouch, okay thanks!
pgalvin 6y ago
This actually isn’t really true. Europe jumped the gun out of caution, but multiple later studies have found no link. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcoleps...
- jnurmine 6y ago
  Please see my reply to your other comment with the same link. There is a link in Finland and Sweden with narcolepsy among people who have HLA-DQB1*06:02 and who got Pandemrix.
- mongol 6y ago
  Except in Sweden, which I talked about. Read your own citations before making statements about truth.